> Lance, the problem is that the 'woman bashing' that you read into it
is
> from
> a false stereotype that has been programmed into your
mind from this
> present
> world system. This mindset is
actually a delusion, a deconstruction of
> something real into something
that is not real. It is the spirit of
> Anti-Christ. This is
the same problem I have preaching on campus about
> homosexuality, or
having a sign that says, "help prevent homosexuality."
> With such a
message of hope to help the homosexual, I am immediately
> typecast into
being a hatemonger and homophobe. Why? Because the bigotry
>
and false stereotype that has been programmed into the minds of others,
> that
> anybody who believes that homosexuality is immoral or
preventable is
> filled
> with hate.
>
> Did you even
read the context of Tertullian's message here? Please look
>
it
> up. If you need me to do the homework for you and paste the
text here or
> provide a link, let me know.
>
> Please
consider his context and his audience. He was speaking to
>
REBELLIOUS
> women, whose heart it was to alter the Creator's work upon
them, by dying
> their hair yellow, and wearing black eyeliner, and
foundation makeup, and
> braiding the hair, and wearing jewelry and
ornaments, fine clothes of
> purple, etc. This is a GENDER
issue. Men generally speaking are not
> prone
> to spending
an inordinate amount of time trying to make themselves
> attractive in
this way. Why do the women do it and not the men? There
>
are
> several explanations. Tertullian was giving his perspective,
based in
> Scripture, a passage from the book of Genesis which all seem
to accept as
> Scripture, and text from the book of Enoch, which
Tertullian accepted as
> Scripture but realized that not everybody
did. In the context in which he
> spoke this, I have no problem
with him speaking a reproof to women in this
> way, reminding them of
Eve's sin and how their deception about this
> wearing
> of
makeup is similar. He gave a historical backdrop, and his reason for
> all
> of this was not to suppress women, but to elevate
them. He was
> contrasting
> the condemned and cursed
condition and linking the wearing of makeup to
> this
> with the
gospel believing liberated woman, who is promised the same
>
dignity
> of men in the resurrection, a seat from which to judge the
very angels
> that
> taught the women to wear makeup and do other
things besides. Even if you
> think his reasoning has problems,
you should not misrepresent him as being
> somebody who was mistreating
women or as someone engaged in 'woman
> bashing.'
> The only way
this idea has any way of flying is if it is lifted out of
> context and
misrepresented as you and Debbie have done by sharing these
> quotes in
the way that you did. I think you do this out of ignorance, but
>
the problem is that you are probably even ignorant of the fact that you
do
> it in ignorance. That is the problem with delusion. You
don't know that
> you are actually believing a lie.
>
>
David Miller.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From:
"Lance Muir" <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To:
<
[email protected]>
>
Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2006 8:21 AM
> Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Fem.
God- Dave H. get bathing suit.
>
>
> IFO could read more
than a little 'woman bashing' herein, David/Dean. I
> don't believe that
either of the two of you would as, IMO, you both adopt
> a
> more
traditionalist understanding of the role of
>
men/women..husbands/wives.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dean Moore" <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
To: <
[email protected]>
>
Sent: February 12, 2006 08:05
> Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Fem. God- Dave
H. get bathing suit.
>
>
>> Thank you David for
this.
>>
>>
>>> [Original
Message]
>>> From: David Miller <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>
To: <
[email protected]>
>>>
Date: 2/11/2006 9:37:40 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Fem.
God- Dave H. get bathing suit.
>>>
>>>
Lance wrote:
>>> > And do you not know that you are an
Eve?
>>> > The sentence of God on this sex of yours
lives
>>> > in this age: the guilt must of necessity live
too.
>>> > You are the devil's gateway: you are the
unsealer
>>> > of that tree: you are the first deserter of the
divine
>>> > law: you are she who persuaded him whom
the
>>> > devil was not valiant enough to attack.
You
>>> > destroyed so easily God's image, man. On
account
>>> > of your desert - that is, death - even the Son of
God
>>> > had to die. ~ Tertullian, Second
Century
>>>
>>> The context of this is from a
paragraph about modesty in apparel
>>> becoming
>>
to
>>> women. The quote stops short in that some sentences
later, he concludes
>>> this train of thought by
saying:
>>> "Accordingly these things are all the baggage of woman
in her condemned
>> and
>>> dead state, instituted as if
to swell the pomp of her funeral."
>>>
>>> So he was
not denigrating women here. He was establishing some
>>
historical
>>> guidelines, expounding upon the judgment of God
toward the woman which
>> said,
>>> "In pains and in
anxieties dost thou bear (children), woman; and toward
>>> thine
husband (is) thy inclination, and he lords It over thee."
>>
Tertullian
>>> quoted this passage just before the quote given by
Debbie above.
>> Tertullian
>>> then goes on, based upon
the writings of Enoch (which he holds to be
>>> Scripture but
recognizes that the Jews did not because they did not
>>>
think
>>> such writings could survive the flood, but Tertullian
believed Noah,
>> Enoch's
>>> great grandson, to have
taken it with him in the ark), to argue that
>> women
>>>
who wear mascara and jewelry and fine ornaments were taught this by
the
>>> angels that had sinned and come down and married
women. He points out
>> that
>>> these same angels
are the angels that we will judge, and if we will
>>>
judge
>>> them, what is it that women have to do with these things
they brought to
>> us,
>>> being consumed with putting on
makeup on their face, or coloring their
>> hair,
>>> or
wearing fine jewelry. He points out that these are things of
the
>> earth
>>> and nothing that women of God ought to
be concerned with. Then he
>>> points
>>> out
that the promise of judging these angels also is given to
women;
>>> therefore, they ought not be involved with these things
that were
>>> dishonoring to the Creator. Tertullian
writes:
>>>
>>> "For you too, (women as you are,) have
the selfsame angelic nature
>> promised
>>> as your
reward, the selfsame sex as men: the selfsame advancement to
the
>>> dignity of judging, does (the Lord) promise
you."
>>>
>>> Such a statement is along the lines of
there being no male or female in
>> the
>>> eyes of
God. It is an empowering statement, that women will be made
>>
judges
>>> of angels on an equal level with men, so the quote
taken out of context
>> to
>>> make Tertullian look like
a woman basher is erroneous. Debbie would be
>>
wise
>>> to hear the end of his
conversation.
>>>
>>> David
Miller.
>>>
>>> ----------
>>> "Let your
speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
>> know
how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)
>>
http://www.InnGlory.org>>>
>>>
If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email
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>>
>>
>>
>>
----------
>> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with
salt, that you may
>> know how you ought to answer every man."
(Colossians 4:6)
>>
http://www.InnGlory.org>>
>>
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>
>
> ----------
>
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
> know
> how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians
4:6)
>
http://www.InnGlory.org>
> If
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> ----------
> "Let your speech be
always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
> know how you
ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)
>
http://www.InnGlory.org>
> If
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