In my opinion, it is not "pastoral" if it is secular -- they are mutually exclusive ideas. That does not mean there is no value in the secular. I fully believe in the good work of research in this field (pyschology), There is much that we humans have in common -- but the reactions to any number of variables creates the demand we be viewed as unique. Generally speaking, there are five models in present day pyschology: psychophysiological, psychdynamic (Freud), behavorial (Watson), cognitive (Simon), and humanistic (Rollo mays, Rogers and Maslow).
Note that anything "divine" is not included.
There are , in fact, over 200 expressions of or models of psychology -- many of them competing views. A course study on the foundational aspects of modern day psychology will not include reference to anything divine or pastoral. In fact, a number of models view "pastoral" or "divine" as problematic and to be avoided.
It is modern day psychology that has challenged religion and not the converse --- simple minded fundamentalist attacks aside.
I believe that where therapy does not involve pharmacology, it should be be pastoral in content. I also believe that much of what we call "mental illness" is not illness at all, rather the normal workings of the mind when it comes under catastrophic stress. I believe that thoughts are not the only things that account for psychological response - the other consideration is that of relationships. And that is where "religion" comes into the picture. Because of my belief in the above -- this business of community is important because it has to do with our mental state - our very person. In fact, the content of "relating" is more important when the two considerations are compared. Man is fully formed as he is embrassed by the community (family, husband-wife, clubs, sport teams and , yes, churches.) Most cases of extreme "mental illness" have a commonality -- isolation from surround
ing relationships -- especially isolation from demonstrable expressions of a truine (or pluristic) God. If that is true, then pastoral counseling is critical and every saint should be a pastor. Knowing that when we capture God, He consumes us , the pastoral "counselor" that is worth her salt is one who understands the difference between the knowledge of human actions and the love that can command those actions and find sense in that which is nonsensical.
jd
-------------- Original message --------------
From: Judy Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: Judy Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
How IYO does the "pastoral counseling" that you offer differ from the secular kind and what kind of problemsare you confronted with JD? judytOn Thu, 16 Mar 2006 21:44:46 +0000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:Yes , I charge for the sessions -------------- $45 for an hour and 20 minutes. I try to work myself out of a job within 6 sessions but will "coach" (read:disciple) them afterwards. I used to offer the help for no charge -- no one took me serious until they were vested in the program. If they run out of money during the sessions , they are continued with no further charge. In almost every case where this has been necessary, the clients cintinue to be quite involved.Regarding Joanna's efforts -- I think if you review her comments, you will see that she is clearly doing the lord's work as she continues with these who are hurting.I have quite a prepared rant concerning secular counseling -- but I tend to keep that to myself. I am a pastoral counselor, not a healthcare provider. The rules are different for me than for others and I work within that framing. If my counseling conflicts with any received by the client, I cancel the sessions until the client is finished with her provider. ....... too confusing for the subject.jd-------------- Original message --------------
From: Judy Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
On Thu, 16 Mar 2006 18:01:10 +0000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:When I counsel someone, Judy, do you know how I know that the opportunity is over -- for absolute certain?When they quit coming to the meetings.I guess so JD; if they are not present then there is noone there to counsel. I don't know if you charge foryour time or what you think is your area of expertise but I do personally believe that finding good counselingin today's church is like finding hen's teeth for those seeking it while ATST there are a plethora of ppl withshingles out ready to listen for an hour for $90 to $125. Are you one of these JD?We should never (or, at least, very seldom) decide for the "sinner" when time enough has been spent. The carnality of the believer often takes long periods of time to overcome - even if God alone is the counselor (ala Job.)Job's counsellors were more trouble than anything because they had no spiritual discernment which is theproblem with many out there today also.Apparently, then, we agree that Joana is doing the Lord's work the Lord's way. jdI wouldn't make a judgment about that JD; I don't know what Joanna is telling these ppl. If she is giving them afalse security then she is not doing the work of the Lord. If she is warning them of what is to come that isanother matter entirely.
From: Judy Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
On Thu, 16 Mar 2006 14:53:34 +0000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:David, I honestly see a huge difference.Joanna seems to believe that those with whom she is working are in need of help --Maybe they are in need of help but from what Joanne says they are not open to receive it ..the way I remember it, the partner was bitter against the Church for supposedly judging themwhich would lead one to believe that nothing has changed.the Corinthians were perfectly content with doing absolutely nothing.How do you know they were content with doing nothing? Some of the greatest altruistic worksare done by out and out blasphemers and sinners.Our churches should be full of sinners willing to ask for help, willing to receive teaching, love,prayer and the spirit.The "willing" part is the crux of the issue JD. Some are willing to receive practical help ontheir terms .. or they want the cover of love but do not want to part with their sin and toleratingthis kind of thing in the name of the Lord is pride. Paul judged it even in his absence becauseif this kind of thing persists the presence of God leaves and we must turn to marketing etc.like the Purpose Driven fellow is about.I see no similarity between Joanna and the Corinthian Carnals. I know that you have spokenout against the church as a "hospital," in the past and I am always surprised at such thinking. jdDo you recall Jesus asking the man at the pool of Bethseda "do you want to be made well?"Valid question. Some want the love and attention while they coddle their soul sickness.From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> John, in my opinion based upon sketchy details, Joanna violated the teaching
> of Paul. Paul dealt with fornicators by instructing believers not to even
> eat with them. Paul rebuked the carnal Corinthians for doing the same thing
> Joanna was doing. Don't you see that? It is a difficult position to take,
> but that is the Scripture of 1 Cor. 3:1ff, 1 Cor. 5, etc.
>
> Now, we don't hear all the facts about her situation, so there are other
> possibilities here. Perhaps Joanna did not know this person very well and
> had not had time to instruct the person in righteousness. If this person
> responds to her admonition that such is wrong, then I don't have a problem
> with her eating with the person. However, if this person is a believer who
> knows better and ju stifies his fornication with the notion that every body
> sins, then we have a problem along the lines of 1 Cor. Do you see it
> differently?
>
> David Miller
>
> p.s. I have eaten with ignorant Christian fornicators many times and will
> continue to do so, but it is because of their ignorance. There are others
> that know better with whom I have had to carry the cross and cut them off,
> even a family member ala Luke 14:26.
>
>
