Dave, for what it is worth, your view of hell is also shared by many Protestants. In fact, a very well known hell fire and brimestone preacher by the name of Jed Smock (www.brojed.org) believes about hell pretty much just like you do. Still, Jed will stand on campus and warn students loudly about "bur-r-r-n-n-ning in the la-a-a-ke of FI-I-I-R-R-E!" I was surprised the first time I learned that Jed believed the fire he preached was figurative. I'm curious about you. Do you ever warn people about the FIRE of hell? In other words, do you use this metaphor yourself to convey to people the danger of transgressing the commandments of God?
David Miller ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave To: [email protected] Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006 2:34 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Hell BoM I did think from previous encounters that you believed there was no "literal" Hell. DAVEH: Quite the contrary. As I view it, hell is the physical separation from God and his love. The effect of such separation is similar to how it would feel if you were cast into the burning garbage dump of Jerusalem, except its effect would last forever. Are you saying then that it is not a place? DAVEH: No, I did not say that. If heaven is located in a place, then heaven is located in a place other than where heaven is located. So yes, hell is a place.....a place where God does not reside, nor does his love emanate. It is not physical? DAVEH: Yes, it is a physical place, but the description of the lake of fire and brimstone is symbolic representation of how folks will feel who end up there. I do not believe people will literally be cast into a burning lake of fire and brimstone. That is imagery, IMHO. If this "literal" Hell you speak of is not a place, DAVEH: Since I do believe it is a place, the remaining questions seem irrelevant. Now that I've satisfied your curiosity Kevin, let me now ask where you think the literal burning pit (hell) will be located? Kevin Deegan wrote: I am sorry I did think from previous encounters that you believed there was no "literal" Hell. Are you saying then that it is not a place? It is not physical? When someone uses the term Literal that is synonomous with physical, perhaps, therein lies the confusion. If this "literal" Hell you speak of is not a place, where will those that suffer this mental anguish be? Will they be neighbors of those that do not suffer? Can there be both joy & sorrow in the same place? Will they be in a physical place? Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: you have been decieved by the Devil DAVEH: I respectfully disagree with you on that, Kevin. Quite the contrary....In reality, I've been enlightened by a fellow TTer! I don't know why it is so difficult for you to understand my position on this, Kevin. I do believe in a literal hell.....literally being separated from God. I just don't believe that those who reject Jesus will literally be cast into a lake of fire and brimstone, as many believe. Lacking the eternal love of the Lord, those who suffer such separation will eternally and forever suffer mental anguish at their shortsighted selfish decision to choose evil over good. Before you had brought these BoM and D&C passages to my attention, I had never considered how latter-day scriptures handled this topic. The only time I had looked into it was several years ago in response to TTers questioning me about it, and at that time I only looked at Bible passages that were posted. Perhaps it was you Kevin, I don't recall. Back then, I had only examined a number of Biblical passages to come to deter mine that those who mentioned hell in the Bible were doing so symbolically when they used the imagery of the burning trash pit of Jerusalem to reflect how one who does not go to heaven will feel. Posting the below passages from other sources reaffirms the same conclusion. Kevin Deegan wrote: Then according to your own book you have been decieved by the Devil into thinking there is No literal Hell Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: DAVEH: You've surprised me, Kevin! I thought you'd want to defend your position using material favorable to your perspective...namely, the Bible. But that is OK, as the LDS sources you've quoted plainly sh ow the symbolism of the terms used to describe hell. Why you would quote some of them somewhat surprises me, as they succinctly show that distinction. I'll take each passage you quoted and analyze it from the premise I've put forth. whosesmoke ascendeth up forever and ever DAVEH: A physical impossibility, and clearly symbolic of a time frame rather than a physical smoke. which lake of fire and bri mstone is endless torment DAVEH: That is explained by the fire and brimstone imagery that is in reality endless torment. a fire which cannot be consumed, even an unquenchable fire DAVEH: More imagery that is physically an impossibility. Fire can be extinguished, whereas mental torment can go on forever. D&C 76: 36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels- DAVEH: By taking the passage out of context, you miss some important and pertinent information, Kevin.... +++++++++ 35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame. 36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels- 37 And the only ones on wh om the second death shall have any power; +++++++++ .........This is referring to a small but special category of those who (denied the Holy Spirit after having received it) are referred to as sons of perdition. While this represents a tangent thread which is not relevant to our discussion, please note vs 37 which differentiates them from all the others as he only ones on whom the second death shall have any power. This may not make sense Kevin, but these are not the folks of whom we usually think about when we talk about hell. After what ye have seen, will ye preach again unto this people, that they shall be cast into a lake of fire and brimstone? DAVEH: Interestingly, you've quoted the chief judge (the antagonist) who was chiding Alma & Amulek and while doing so, you have assumed that the chief judge quoted Alma correctly. However Kevin, that is an errant assumption, as the below quote shows........... +++++++++ [Alma 12:17] Then is the time when their torments shall be as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever; and then is the time that they shall be chained down to an everlasting destruction, according to the power and captivity of Satan, he having subjected them according to his will. +++++++++ ...........Alma clearly taught that their torments were as a< /I>, indicating that Alma's explanation of fire and brimstone is a symbolic representation of hell. and their gtorment is as a lake of fire and brimstone DAVEH: Apparently you've got a serious computer virus, Kevin........g is infecting your posts! The wording here suggests an analogy.... torment is as a lake whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever and has no end ........Again, clear symbolism that cannot be literally true. The two words is as plainly show this to be an analogy. sha ll have their part in that lake which burneth with fire and brimstone, which is the second death DAVEH: If there is any doubt as to the symbolic nature of hell, this surely puts it to rest by explaining what is meant by.....that lake which burneth with fire and brimstone whose smoke ascendeth up forever and ever DAVEH: Another obvious literal impossibility that as an analogy makes sense..... which lake of fire and brimst one is endless torment ........especially when it is explained as endless torment. the final state of the souls of men is to dwell in the kingdom of God, or to be cast out DAVEH: Which pretty well explains the difference in venue.....some will reside in heaven, and some won't. Effectively, those not allowed to dwell in heaven will be spiritually and severely self tormented eternally. FWIW........You forgot to mention some of the other BoM passages that when taken with the others pretty well reveal the symbolic nature of the fire and brimstone hell. Consider Nephi's comments....... ++++++++ [2Ne 9:14] Wherefore, we shall have a perfect knowledge of all our guilt, and our uncleanness, and our nakednes s; and the righteous shall have a perfect knowledge of their enjoyment, and their righteousness, being clothed with purity, yea, even with the robe of righteousness. [15] And it shall come to pass that when all men shall have passed from this first death unto life, insomuch as they have become immortal, they must appear before the judgment-seat of the Holy One of Israel; and then cometh the judgment, and then must they be judged according to the holy judgment of God. [16] And assuredly, as the Lord liveth, for the Lord God hath spoken it, and it is his eternal word, which cannot pass away, that they who are righteous shall be righteous still, and they who are filthy shall be filthy still; wherefore, they who are filthy are the devil and his angels; and they shall go away into everlasting fire; prepared for them; and their torment is as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever and has no end. ++++++++ ........whi ch once again portray the imagery by using two simple words...is as. So Kevin....As you can plainly see, each instance you mentioned below (excepting the sons of perdition--D&C 76: 36 --, which is a tangential discussion relating to another category that I'm not addressing in this post) is clearly a symbolic representation of hell. I'm not sure why you wanted to bring the BoM and D&C into the discussion though, as I would think your strong point would be the Bible. If you can't find a single instance in the Bible to support your heavily vested assumption, then you are going to have a hard time convincing me that your theory is correct, even though many theologians and popular thought may agree with you. Kevin Deegan wrote: Jacob 6:10 And according to the power of justice, for justice cannot be denied, ye must go away into that lake of fire and brimstone, whose flames are unquenchable, and whosesmoke ascendeth up forever and ever, which lake of fire and brimstone is endless torment. Alma 5:51-52 And also the Spirit saith unto me, yea, crieth unto me with a mighty voice, saying: Go forth and say unto this people-Repent, for except ye repent ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, the Spirit saith: Behold, the ax is laid at the root of the tree; therefore every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit shall be hewn down and cast into the fire, yea, a fire which cannot be consumed, even an unquenchable fire. Behold, and remember, the Holy One hath spoken it. 2 Nephi 15-17And it shall come to pass that when all men shall have passed from this first death unto life, insomuch as they have become immortal, they must appear before the judgment-seat of the Holy One of Israel; and then cometh the judgment, and then must they be judged according to the holy judgment of God. And assuredly, as the Lord liveth, for the Lord God hath spoken it, and it is his eternal word, which cannot pass away, that they who are righteous shall be righteous still, and they who are filthy shall be filth still; wherefore, they who are filthy are the edevil and his angels; and they shall go away into everlasting fire, prepared for them; and their gtorment is as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever and has no end. O the greatness and the ajustice of our God! For he executeth all his words, and they have gone forth out of his mouth, and his law must be fulfilled. D&C 63: 17 Wherefore, I, the Lord, have said that the fearful, and the bunbelieving, and all liars, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie, and the whoremonger, and the sorcerer, sha ll have their part in that lake which burneth with fire and br imstone, which is the second death. D&C 76: 36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels- Alma 14: 14 Now it came to pass that when the bodies of those who had been cast into the fire were consumed, and also the records which were cast in with them, the chief judge of the land came and stood before Alma and Amulek, as they were bound ; and he smote them with his hand upon their cheeks, and said unto them: After what ye have seen, will ye preach again unto this people, that they shall be cast into a lake of fire and brimstone? Jacob 6: 10 And according to the power of ajustice, for justice cannot be denied, ye must go away into that lake of fire and brimstone, whose flames are unquenchable, and whose smoke ascendeth up forever and ever, which lake of fire and brimst one is endless torment. 1 Ne. 15: 35 And there is a place prepared, yea, even that awful hell of which I have spoken, and the devil is the preparator of it; wherefore the final state of the souls of men is to dwell in the kingdom of God, or to be cast out because of that djustice of which I have spoken. Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: DAVEH: Hadn't thought about it, Kevin. Post a passage and let's examine it. Kevin Deegan wrote: Is it figurative in the BoM too? Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: NOTE to all TTers: I had attempted to post several responses that were rejected. Most of them were about the previous situation, which is now less than pertinent, so there is no point in posting them. However, a couple of them may be of interest. DAVEH: As far as I've been able to discern, every instance that hell is referred to in the Bible, it is in a figurative sense.....using the burning trash dump as th e only (with the exception of worms eating the innards, and excruciating thirst) literal imagery to which the folks back then could relate. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >> Actually, if we take it literal, can we not argue that hell is a >> burning trash dump somewhere outside Jerusalem? >> >> jd> -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS. ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." 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