Re: [TruthTalk] Hell BoM

[Judy Taylor]

I don't know if closing down TT is Lance's ultimate agenda but he does appear to like the idea.  Reminds me of Tobias who kept nipping at the heels of those engaged in rebuilding the temple.  Nehemiah said he didn't have time to engage him because he was a diversion and seemingly on a mission.  .   Lance and cohorts, please stop referring to David Miller's "sect".  Can you identify or name any such sect? Why do you insist on such arrogant  insults? David please close this snakepit.  izzy Lance writes: > > David:On warning (wo)men re:'transgressing the commandments of > God'. > > Everyone (including you along with all of those within your sect, > David) > > 'transgresses the commandments of God', David. You then, David, > ought to > > be > > and, likely are, warning those non-protestants within your sect > concerning > > this. Amen, I guess, for consistency if nothing else. > > From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: <TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org> > > Sent: March 18, 2006 16:11 > > Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Hell BoM > > > > > >> Dave, for what it is worth, your view of hell is also shared by > many > >> Protestants.  In fact, a very well known hell fire and brimestone > > >> preacher > >> by the name of Jed Smock (www.brojed.org) believes about hell > pretty much > >> just like you do.  Still, Jed will stand on campus and warn > students > >> loudly > >> about "bur-r-r-n-n-ning in the la-a-a-ke of FI-I-I-R-R-E!"  I > was > >> surprised > >> the first time I learned that Jed believed the fire he preached > was > >> figurative. I'm curious about you. Do you ever warn people about > the FIRE > >> of > >> hell?  In other words, do you use this metaphor yourself to > convey to > >> people > >> the danger of transgressing the commandments of God? > >> > >> David Miller > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: Dave > >> To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org > >> Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006 2:34 PM > >> Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Hell BoM > >> > >> I did think from previous encounters that you believed there was > no > >> "literal" Hell. > >> > >> DAVEH:  Quite the contrary.   As I view it, hell is the physical > >> separation > >> from God and his love.  The effect of such separation is similar > to how > >> it > >> would feel if you were cast into the burning garbage dump of > Jerusalem, > >> except its effect would last forever. > >> > >> Are you saying then that it is not a place? > >> > >> DAVEH:  No, I did not say that.  If heaven is located in a place, > then > >> heaven is located in a place other than where heaven is located.  > So yes, > >> hell is a place.....a place where God does not reside, nor does > his love > >> emanate. > >> > >> It is not physical? > >> > >> DAVEH:  Yes, it is a physical place, but the description of the > lake of > >> fire > >> and brimstone is symbolic representation of how folks will feel > who end > >> up > >> there.  I do not believe people will literally be cast into a > burning > >> lake > >> of fire and brimstone.  That is imagery, IMHO. > >> > >> If this "literal" Hell you speak of is not a place, > >> > >> DAVEH:   Since I do believe it is a place, the remaining > questions seem > >> irrelevant. > >> > >>    Now that I've satisfied your curiosity Kevin, let me now ask > where you > >> think the literal burning pit (hell) will be located? > >> > >> > >> > >> Kevin Deegan wrote: > >> I am sorry > >> I did think from previous encounters that you believed there was > no > >> "literal" Hell. > >> Are you saying then that it is not a place? > >> It is not physical? > >> When someone uses the term Literal that is synonomous with > physical, > >> perhaps, therein lies the confusion. > >> > >> If this "literal" Hell you speak of is not a place, where will > those that > >> suffer this mental anguish be? > >> Will they be neighbors of those that do not suffer? > >> Can there be both joy & sorrow in the same place? > >> Will they be in a physical place? > >> > >> Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> you have been decieved by the Devil > >> > >> DAVEH:  I respectfully disagree with you on that, Kevin.  Quite > the > >> contrary....In reality, I've been enlightened by a fellow TTer! > >> > >>    I don't know why it is so difficult for you to understand my > position > >> on > >> this, Kevin.  I do believe in a literal hell.....literally being > > >> separated > >> from God.  I just don't believe that those who reject Jesus will > > >> literally > >> be cast into a lake of fire and brimstone, as many believe.  > Lacking the > >> eternal love of the Lord, those who suffer such separation will > eternally > >> and forever suffer mental anguish at their shortsighted selfish > decision > >> to > >> choose evil over good. > >> > >>    Before you had brought these BoM and D&C passages to my > attention, I > >> had > >> never considered how latter-day scriptures handled this topic.  > The only > >> time I had looked into it was several years ago in response to > TTers > >> questioning me about it, and at that time I only looked at Bible > passages > >> that were posted.  Perhaps it was you Kevin, I don't recall.  > Back then, > >> I > >> had only examined a number of Biblical passages to come to deter > mine > >> that > >> those who mentioned hell in the Bible were doing so symbolically > when > >> they > >> used the imagery of the burning trash pit of Jerusalem to reflect > how one > >> who does not go to heaven will feel.  Posting the below passages > from > >> other > >> sources reaffirms the same conclusion. > >> > >> Kevin Deegan wrote: > >> Then according to your own book you have been decieved by the > Devil into > >> thinking there is No literal Hell > >> > >> Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> > >> DAVEH:   You've surprised me, Kevin!   I thought you'd want to > defend > >> your > >> position using material favorable to your perspective...namely, > the > >> Bible. > >> But that is OK, as the LDS sources you've quoted plainly sh ow > the > >> symbolism > >> of the terms used to describe hell.  Why you would quote some of > them > >> somewhat surprises me, as they succinctly show that distinction.  > I'll > >> take > >> each passage you quoted and analyze it from the premise I've put > forth. > >> > >> whosesmoke ascendeth up forever and ever > >> > >> DAVEH:   A physical impossibility, and clearly symbolic of a time > frame > >> rather than a physical smoke. > >> > >> which lake of fire and bri mstone is endless torment > >> > >> DAVEH:  That is explained by the fire and brimstone imagery that > is in > >> reality endless torment. > >> > >> a fire which cannot be consumed, even an unquenchable fire > >> > >> DAVEH:   More imagery that is physically an impossibility.  Fire > can be > >> extinguished, whereas mental torment can go on forever. > >> > >> D&C 76: 36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire > and > >> brimstone, with the devil and his angels- > >> > >> DAVEH:  By taking the passage out of context, you miss some > important and > >> pertinent information, Kevin.... > >> > >> +++++++++ > >> 35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and > having > >> denied > >> the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto > themselves > >> and put him to an open shame. > >> > >> 36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and > brimstone, > >> with the devil and his angels- > >> > >> 37 And the only ones on wh om the second death shall have any > power; > >> +++++++++ > >> > >> .........This is referring to a small but special category of > those who > >> (denied the Holy Spirit after having received it) are referred to > as sons > >> of > >> perdition.  While this represents a tangent thread which is not > relevant > >> to > >> our discussion, please note vs 37 which differentiates them from > all the > >> others as he only ones on whom the second death shall have any > power. > >> This > >> may not make sense Kevin, but these are not the folks of whom we > usually > >> think about when we talk about hell. > >> > >> After what ye have seen, will ye preach again unto this people, > that they > >> shall be cast into a lake of fire and brimstone? > >> > >> DAVEH:   Interestingly, you've quoted the chief judge (the > antagonist) > >> who > >> was chiding Alma & Amulek and while doing so, you have assumed > that the > >> chief judge quoted Alma correctly.  However Kevin, that is an > errant > >> assumption, as the below quote shows........... > >> > >> +++++++++ > >> [Alma 12:17] Then is the time when their torments shall be as a > lake of > >> fire > >> and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever; and > then is the > >> time that they shall be chained down to an everlasting > destruction, > >> according to the power and captivity of Satan, he having > subjected them > >> according to his will. > >> +++++++++ > >> > >> ...........Alma clearly taught that their torments were as a< > /I>, > >> indicating that Alma's explanation of fire and brimstone is a > symbolic > >> representation of hell. > >> > >> and their gtorment is as a lake of fire and brimstone > >> > >> DAVEH:   Apparently you've got a serious computer virus, > Kevin........g > >> is > >> infecting your posts! > >> > >>    The wording here suggests an analogy.... > >> > >> torment is as a lake whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever > and has no > >> end > >> > >> ........Again, clear symbolism that cannot be literally true.  > The two > >> words > >> is as plainly show this to be an analogy. > >> > >> sha ll have their part in that lake which burneth with fire and > >> brimstone, > >> which is the second death > >> > >> DAVEH:  If there is any doubt as to the symbolic nature of hell, > this > >> surely > >> puts it to rest by explaining what is meant by.....that lake > which > >> burneth > >> with fire and brimstone > >> > >> whose smoke ascendeth up forever and ever > >> > >> DAVEH:  Another obvious literal impossibility that as an analogy > makes > >> sense..... > >> > >> which lake of fire and brimst one is endless torment > >> > >> ........especially when it is explained as endless torment. > >> > >> the final state of the souls of men is to dwell in the kingdom of > God, or > >> to > >> be cast out > >> > >> DAVEH:   Which pretty well explains the difference in > venue.....some will > >> reside in heaven, and some won't.  Effectively, those not allowed > to > >> dwell > >> in heaven will be spiritually and severely self tormented > eternally. > >> > >>    FWIW........You forgot to mention some of the other BoM > passages that > >> when taken with the others pretty well reveal the symbolic nature > of the > >> fire and brimstone hell.  Consider Nephi's comments....... > >> > >> ++++++++ > >> [2Ne 9:14] Wherefore, we shall have a perfect knowledge of all > our guilt, > >> and our uncleanness, and our nakednes s; and the righteous shall > have a > >> perfect knowledge of their enjoyment, and their righteousness, > being > >> clothed > >> with purity, yea, even with the robe of righteousness. > >> > >> [15] And it shall come to pass that when all men shall have > passed from > >> this > >> first death unto life, insomuch as they have become immortal, > they must > >> appear before the judgment-seat of the Holy One of Israel; and > then > >> cometh > >> the judgment, and then must they be judged according to the holy > judgment > >> of > >> God. > >> > >> [16] And assuredly, as the Lord liveth, for the Lord God hath > spoken it, > >> and > >> it is his eternal word, which cannot pass away, that they who > are > >> righteous > >> shall be righteous still, and they who are filthy shall be filthy > still; > >> wherefore, they who are filthy are the devil and his angels; and > they > >> shall > >> go away into everlasting fire; prepared for them; and their > torment is as > >> a > >> lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up forever and > ever and > >> has no end. > >> ++++++++ > >> ........whi ch once again portray the imagery by using two > simple > >> words...is > >> as. > >> > >>    So Kevin....As you can plainly see, each instance you > mentioned below > >> (excepting the sons of perdition--D&C 76: 36 --, which is a > tangential > >> discussion relating to another category that I'm not addressing > in this > >> post) is clearly a symbolic representation of hell.  I'm not sure > why you > >> wanted to bring the BoM and D&C into the discussion though, as I > would > >> think > >> your strong point would be the Bible.  If you can't find a single > > >> instance > >> in the Bible to support your heavily vested assumption, then you > are > >> going > >> to have a hard time convincing me that your theory is correct, > even > >> though > >> many theologians and popular thought may agree with you. > >> > >> > >> Kevin Deegan wrote: > >> Jacob 6:10 And according to the power of justice, for justice > cannot be > >> denied, ye must go away into that lake of fire and brimstone, > whose > >> flames > >> are unquenchable, and whosesmoke ascendeth up forever and ever, > which > >> lake > >> of fire and brimstone is endless torment. > >> > >> Alma 5:51-52 And also the Spirit saith unto me, yea, crieth unto > me with > >> a > >> mighty voice, saying: Go forth and say unto this people-Repent, > for > >> except > >> ye repent ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of heaven. And > again I say > >> unto you, the Spirit saith: Behold, the ax is laid at the root of > the > >> tree; > >> therefore every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit shall be > hewn > >> down > >> and cast into the fire, yea, a fire which cannot be consumed, > even an > >> unquenchable fire. Behold, and remember, the Holy One hath spoken > it. > >> > >> 2 Nephi 15-17And it shall come to pass that when all men shall > have > >> passed > >> from this > >> first death unto life, insomuch as they have become immortal, > they must > >> appear before the judgment-seat of the Holy One of Israel; and > then > >> cometh > >> the judgment, and then must they be judged according to the holy > judgment > >> of > >> God. And assuredly, as the Lord liveth, for the Lord God hath > spoken it, > >> and > >> it is his eternal word, which cannot pass away, that they who > are > >> righteous > >> shall be righteous still, and they who are filthy shall be filth > still; > >> wherefore, they who are filthy are the edevil and his angels; and > they > >> shall > >> go away into everlasting fire, prepared for them; and their > gtorment is > >> as > > > >> a > >> lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up forever and > ever and > >> has no end. O the greatness and the ajustice of our God! For he > executeth > >> all his words, and they have gone forth out of his mouth, and his > law > >> must > >> be fulfilled. > >> > >> D&C 63: 17 Wherefore, I, the Lord, have said that the fearful, > and the > >> bunbelieving, and all liars, and whosoever loveth and maketh a > lie, and > >> the > >> whoremonger, and the sorcerer, sha ll have their part in that > lake which > >> burneth with fire and br imstone, which is the second death. > >> > >> D&C 76: 36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire > and > >> brimstone, with the devil and his angels- > >> > >> Alma 14: 14 Now it came to pass that when the bodies of those who > had > >> been > >> cast into the fire were consumed, and also the records which were > cast in > >> with them, the chief judge of  the land came and stood before > Alma and > >> Amulek, as they were bound ; and he smote them with his hand upon > their > >> cheeks, and said unto them: After what ye have seen, will ye > preach again > >> unto this people, that they shall be cast into a lake of fire > and > >> brimstone? > >> > >> Jacob 6: 10 And according to the power of ajustice, for justice > cannot be > >> denied, ye must go away into that lake of fire and brimstone, > whose > >> flames > >> are unquenchable, and whose smoke ascendeth up forever and ever, > which > >> lake > >> of fire and brimst one is endless torment. > >> > >> 1 Ne. 15: 35 And there is a place prepared, yea, even that awful > hell of > >> which I have > >> spoken, and the devil is the preparator of it; wherefore the > final state > >> of > >> the souls of > >> men is to dwell in the kingdom of God, or to be cast out because > of that > >> djustice of > >> which I have spoken. > >> > >> Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> DAVEH:  Hadn't thought about it, Kevin.  Post a passage and let's > examine > >> it. > >> > >> Kevin Deegan wrote: > >> Is it figurative in the BoM too? > >> > >> Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> NOTE to all TTers: I had attempted to post several responses that > were > >> rejected. Most of them were about the previous situation, which > is now > >> less > >> than pertinent, so there is no point in posting them. However, a > couple > >> of > >> them may be of interest. > >> > >> > >> DAVEH: As far as I've been able to discern, every instance that > hell > >> is referred to in the Bible, it is in a figurative > sense.....using the > >> burning trash dump as th e only (with the exception of worms > eating the > >> innards, and excruciating thirst) literal imagery to which the > folks > >> back then could relate. > >> > >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > >> > >> > >>>> Actually, if we take it literal, can we not argue that hell is > a > >>>> burning trash dump somewhere outside Jerusalem? > >>>> > >>>> jd> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >> Dave Hansen > >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> http://www.langlitz.com > >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >> If you wish to receive > >> things I find interesting, > >> I maintain six email lists... > >> JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, > >> STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS. > >> > >> ---------- > >> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that > you may > >> know how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) > >> http://www.InnGlory.org > >> > >> If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email > to > >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you > have a > >> friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to > >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. > >> > > > > > > ---------- > > "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that > you may > > know > > how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) > > http://www.InnGlory.org > > > > If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email > to > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you > have a > > friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. > > > > > > > > ---------- > > "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that > you may > > know how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) > > http://www.InnGlory.org > > > > If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email > to > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you > have a > > friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. > > > > > ---------- > "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you > may know how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) > http://www.InnGlory.org > > If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you > have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. > >