-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 On 7/28/16 13:18, Joe Touch wrote: > > > On 7/28/2016 1:11 PM, Theodore V Faber wrote: >> On 7/28/16 13:04, Joe Touch wrote: >> >>> I.e., we should NEVER use these boxes to govern how we build >>> TCP for the masses. >> >> To say that another way: vendors who produce such devices are >> failing to follow the Postel principle. > > The Postel Principle talks about what to do when the docs don't > say otherwise.
No. The Postel Principle applies to networking in general. "Be simple in your behavior and tolerant of others" does not include any proviso about an IETF position. > >> Whether the IETF says anything explicitly or not, > > Actually, they're quite directly contradicting explicit existing > standards. Which falls under "says anything," right? Feeling crabby, are we? > >> they're producing artifacts of less value to their customers. >> Standards-compliant stacks will emit TCP options in ways that >> such vendors evidently don't expect. > > Those vendors shouldn't be looking at TCP options or TCP at all. > It's none of their business. > > Maybe we should just start using IPsec in BTNS mode (to avoid > needing keys) as a tunnel to get through all such devices. > >> >> The IETF standard reflects a consensus among designers and >> implementers that there's no constraint on TCP option ordering. >> The time to argue about it is past; live with it or produce >> crappy products. > > This issue cannot be fixed merely by reacting to what vendors > deploy. "React?" Bah. How is my position unclear here? I advocate that the IETF do nothing. Perhaps in a just world, their competitors should pipe up and say "Whoever's crappy product breaks stuff." The IETF has said its piece: "there is no constraint on the order of TCP options." > > The solution has been clear for a long time - *compliance > verification*. I assure you that vendors that get sued for saying > "Internet compatible" who are not would behave differently. We prefer different societal pressures, evidently. I like the one where I can be lazier. - -- Ted Faber <[email protected]> Engineering Specialist Computer Systems Research Department 310-336-7373 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJXmms3AAoJEFNjQnOBW8uOw/0P/RC9ykg6ZK7C/FhAKnEANrLr wO1io51iZyRTgmchVpqEx0TvgaFW1Hy9GQpDIaZrNPy1IoT/nkP3MCKc/9fEyikV JKQkAhLuz2Y7EuCEy3VIE3KcQfg8HB1mYs5gkzKutO07/HmIYnr6fHFNBM+cAXKE II2fB48GJ7eOX3P/SkIcIsAbJcK0+7KyoepSf7MILRorJiRyJ3WBtSJJ4qDcTYQb WdNjMnDFxc3ETXZjt9aMpzFVe+TKpRf4BB+f0HmezM+6m1tm92pcpiaW5/ZKD8pc NvJo6pOFszyTHxAeABGc3G6VWcpm4exZKpy+YcirXjpE6pfDD3GutS+X16kRSDhD i/QhDdspZI6ZRx+JLLsh2cvdVVjn/HLJObzl+U1D3FIdvd8EFXaTqxl7a/zkxpeC U2Ph39m7bRHDr7aqKr/75kdFBliStkT41Tq9lww3+R39GXGVwkAhRUc0MBiFY5Uk W1G5JB2/ny/7Sp+3lIhI2brEKyhCfQZl4lkBI+VjPNgei4CFbRh0f+RRoW2yslfa A80D7ImWiRokQI+5dWkAPx5CmkXeyo+jOVUjt7w8/i3xjbq8JfuMONUfaYTNQ2qw QHB7MhDuYb5OwWd4XjGuegT0iYdFrz2zft7QM1w2gGRZPsRV67Z9hAtfpKMWM9i2 qPHCCcIg5Z9CQep1FN8F =XtdM -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
