On Thu, 2007-08-02 at 12:09 +0100, Christopher Arndt wrote: > Ben Sizer schrieb: > > Once the developers have done what > > should have been done long ago, only then can the typical user of the > > framework be expected to have a decent enough understanding of what is > > going on to be able to contribute anything of significant worth. > > Any contribution is significant, IMHO. Karl has pointed out a few times now > how > people can help out without having in-depth knowledge of TurboGears.
Yes, but *demanding* ( which is the impression that sign makes ) is rude, not practical, and doesn't make sense. And it makes the wildly erroneous assumption that a new user plans on sticking around. They are still auditioning the project. They won't contribute until they make a decision that is worth putting time in, and we have to welcome them and get them up and running as painlessly as possible in order for them to do that. Then *maybe* they become commited users. And *maybe* they become docs writers or developers. And that should be enough. > Sorry, if I'm a little bit silly or sarcastic, but it makes me sad when > people > seem to forget that projects like TurboGears live through the participation of > everybody and voluntary work. If you think, using TurboGears has helped you in > some way, why don't you consider in giving something in return? What ever makes you think that I don't plan on it? What does that have to do with how we welcome new users? ( Which is the issue in point here, I started the thread over that sign. ) Here is a simple thought experiment for you. Have you contributed to docs for *all* of: - apache - cherrypy - emacs/vim/your FLOSS editor - linux/bsd - xorg, gnome, your window manager of choice - python/php/perl/ - gcc/g++/the rest of GNU code tools - mozilla/firefox/firebug/venkman Yes you are correct that we need volunteer work. But ALL of my list are open source, and all are used by developers who are as qualified to contribute as the average TG user. And as a developer I'm sure we could both add another couple of dozen open source libraries and toolkits we use regularly. All have docs. In none ( except now TG ) have I encountered an *expectation* that making docs is a *responsibility* of a new user and that I am expected as a user to contribute to *this* project, and then been greeted by a sign like that. It is very poor project manners to our potential user base. I personally do plan to when I contribute, *when* I understand the basics better. I'm making a point on a larger scale, because I would like to see TG last, and this is not welcoming to new users. It looks very bad from a marketing perspective, and we want new users right? In order than a small share become developers. That is the spirit of open source, give to all, some become developers. It is not the expectation of a good project that all users become developers. You may personally think everyone should contribute back to open source, I think so too, in some manner. I sure as heck don't think that it even makes sense for me to contribute back to each of the hundred odd FLOSS tools I use every day. Telling me to get back to work writing docs when I have been using TG for 3 months now is just silly and as mentioned, a cop out. And I represent well this "generic you" are yelling at. You don't hear that crap from Bob about Mochkit. He put it out with stellar ref docs and would never expect ( or allow for quality reasons ) a new user to do that for him. I did not start this current friction over the docs. But I did leap to defend people for making valid critiques when they were greeted by a non-sensical chorus of "well, stop complaining that the docs are incomplete, why haven't *you* done anything about it?" Believe me, we damn well are losing users over that attitude, they just don't say anything about when they go. I'm stirring the pot because I *do* care. If I didn't, I'd just say "TG? man, they were really rude when someone pointed out that they had no manual, I'm going back to PHP.net" So if people are going to say to me "stop whining and start writing docs" then I'm saying back "stop whining about your lack of volunteers are start treating your new users properly or you will lose them." Iain --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TurboGears" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/turbogears?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
