[ The Types Forum, http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list ]

The reasoning behind point #1 is "If someone doesn't think the government should pass a law prohibiting X, then they support X." To be blunt, this is a fallacy.

It would be interesting to see the numbers on point #3. One should keep in mind that various publishers, including ACM, have been cutting one-time deals to reduce open access article processing fees. as they explore the Open Access options. Consequently, the charges for any one conference/journal/SIG may not be representative.

Since Arxiv is currently largely supported by Cornell University along with the Simons Foundation, I appreciate the callout. But its costs are also increasing dramatically. Further, ACM does many positive things beyond archiving articles.

-- Andrew

Gabriel Scherer wrote on 12/22/19 12:52 PM:
Dear Andrew (and list),

    I believe open access is a goal for ACM


This is what the ACM says, but this is not their actions suggest. Some examples:

1. They signed this letter. (They defend their choice in https://www.acm.org/about-acm/opposition-to-zero-embargo-mandate )

2. Events affiliated with an ACM conference, such as a workshop, are not allowed to publish their proceedings as (fair) open-access if they wish to, for example by publishing in ETCS or LiPICS. (I know from my experience with the ML and OCaml workshops that ACM people check this and enforce this rule.)

3. According to private communication with ETAPS organizers, the Gold Open Access deal offered by Springer costs *less* per paper for ETAPS than the Open Access model that SIGPLAN generously funds for PACMPL. If you're doing worse than Springer at Open Access, you are probably not trying very hard.

    I hope we can agree that publishers do provide some value in
    supporting the scientific process, for example by maintaining
    archives of publications for decades and across formats.


According to LiPICS (the fair Open Access publishing arm of Schloss Dagstuhl), their edition/typesetting work costs 60€ per article ( https://www.dagstuhl.de/en/publications/lipics/processing-charge/ ). (In any case, ACM outsources their edition work on proceedings to external companies, that if I understand correctly are budgeted as part of the conference organization, so not paid by ACM itself.)

According to arXiv, their long-term archival platform costs <$7 per article ( https://arxiv.org/help/support/whitepaper#21-budget ).

On Sun, Dec 22, 2019 at 3:46 PM Andrew Myers <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:

    It feels a bit facile to bash the ACM for signing onto this
    letter. The letter does not mean that they oppose making
    publications freely available; in fact, I believe open access is a
    goal for ACM. The letter means that they oppose having the
    government *mandate* that all scientific publishers operate in
    this way. Exactly what the right funding model is for scientific
    publications is still up in the air. Should the government spend
    taxes enforcing rules whose implications we
    do not fully understand? I think not.

    The discussions I have seen about this topic seem to focus on the
    costs to readers and authors while completely ignoring the
    economics of publishing. I hope we can agree that publishers do
    provide some value in supporting the scientific process, for
    example by maintaining archives of publications for decades and
    across formats. That value can only be delivered if ACM et al.
    have money. Where are they supposed to get it? The old model of
    libraries paying ACM subscriptions is dying and is incompatible
    with open access. Corporate charity is unreliable and
    insufficient. The only other player with an incentive to provide
    money is the authors. My understanding is that the economics are
    forcing ACM to go in that direction.

    I believe ACM Is trying to be a good actor here, unlike publishers
    that double-dip by extracting money from both the authors
    (publication fees) and the readers (subscription fees); those
    publishers are doing very well financially and generating
    well-earned resentment. My understanding is that ACM does not want
    to double-dip. Instead, the idea is that authors at institutions
    with ACM subscriptions will pay lower or no fees for publications.
    That should keep the total cost to institutions under control and
    hopefully approximately cost-neutral. And note that the open
    access fees charged to other authors are still much lower than the
    author fees charged by other publishers. The journal Nature
    charges authors $2000, for example, and it is not the high end.

    Best,

    Andrew Myers

    Gabriel Scherer wrote on 12/21/19 6:01 AM:
    [ The Types Forum,
    http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list ]

    Dear Roberto (and list),

    The new ACM Open model is based on the core idea of saving the licensing

    revenue of the ACM by shifting costs from their many customers (including

    in particular companies) to only the institutions who submit the articles.

    They hope that the academic actors that produce the scientific value will

    also pay for current ACM expenses. This model is completely incompatible

    with having fair Open Access prices for ACM publications; on the contrary,

    it would result in a strong total-cost increase for academic entities that

    publish in ACM proceedings.

    This is frankly explained on the (current version of) the ACM Open
    documentation page:
    https://www.acm.org/publications/openaccess#acmopen

    Today, ACM Publications and the ACM Digital Library platform are funded by

    selling "read" or "access" licenses to approximately 2,700 universities,

    government research labs, and corporations from around the world. The

    income generated from the sale of these licenses [...] is approximately

    $20M+ annually

    The vast majority of [ACM] articles are authored by individuals affiliated

    with ~1,000 institutions, which is roughly 1/3 of the institutions that

    license “access” to the ACM Digital Library. So, the main challenge for ACM

    is how to generate roughly the same income from 1/3 the number of
    institutions over the long term, as ACM transitions from selling
    institutional "access" to an institutional "OA publication" model and more

    and more of the articles published in the ACM DL are published in front of

    the subscription paywall.

    A transition to fair Open Access practices would require the difficult

    decision of giving up on licensing revenue.
    The ACM does not seem willing to do it, and cannot be trusted to do it

    eventually.


    On Fri, Dec 20, 2019 at 7:08 PM Roberto Di Cosmo
    <[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected]>
    wrote:

    Thanks Gabriel for bringing this to this list: it was indeed shocking to

    see ACM
    (and many other learned societies) in the list of signatories of this

    letter.

    The fact that many small learned societies do not feel ready to jump into

    a pure
    open access model right away does not justify their signature on a letter

    containing highly debatable (that's an euphemism) statements like the ones

    you pinpoint.

    By a curious coincidence, I got almost at the same time an ACM newlsetter

    (Blue
    Diamond) containing among other announcements, this one:

         ACM OPEN: A New Transformative Model for Open Access Publication


          Over the past year ACM Publications staff have been working
    collaboratively with
          a group of large research universities in the United States to

    develop an
          entirely new and innovative model for Open Access publication that

    has the
          potential to transition ACM into a predominantly Open Access
    publisher over the
          next decade or sooner.

    You can find details of the proposed model at
    https://www.acm.org/publications/openaccess#acmopen

    Cheers

-- Roberto

    On Fri, Dec 20, 2019 at 02:53:05PM +0100, Gabriel Scherer wrote:
    [ The Types Forum,
    http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list ]
    Dear types-list and SIGPLAN,

    I have long been of the opinion that our scientific publications
    should be Open Access, and that editors should not request more than

    a fair price (cost of publication, which Dasgtuhl estimates at $60
    per article). In particular, I believe that copyright transfer
    agreements, as imposed by most editors including the ACM, is deeply

    unethical: the publishers are not the authors of our scientific
    production and they should not force us to give our copyright to
    them. A non-exclusive publishing agreement should be enough.

    Whether or not you agree with this position, you may be interested in

    the content of the following letter to the US White House that
    a coalition of scientific publishers, *including the ACM*, signed and

    support.



    
https://presspage-production-content.s3.amazonaws.com/uploads/1508/coalitionletteropposinglowerembargoes12.18.2019-581369.pdf

       press release from the coalition of editors:

    
https://newsroom.publishers.org/researchers-and-publishers-oppose-immediate-free-distribution-of-peer-reviewed-journal-articles

    (This letter was written in the context of a proposed US legislation

    to force more scientists to publish their work in Fair Open Access
    venues. I haven't been able to find a precise link to a discussion of

    this proposed legislation.)

    The following parts of the letter co-signed by the ACM are
    particularly juicy:

    [We] have learned that the Administration may be preparing to step

    into the private marketplace and force the immediate free distribution

    of journal articles financed and published by organizations in the

    private sector, including many non-profits. This would effectively

    nationalize the valuable American intellectual property that we
    produce and force us to give it away to the rest of the world for
    free.
    This mandate [...] would make it very difficult for most American
    publishers to invest in publishing these articles. As a consequence,

    it would place increased financial responsibility on the government

    through diverted federal research grant funds or additional monies

    to underwrite the important value added by publishing. In the coming

    years, this cost shift would place billions of dollars of new and
    additional burden on taxpayers.
    In my discussion with many of us, I regularly hear that the ACM is
    "not evil" (the SIGPLAN, of course, is pure good!) and that placating

    its weird views (for example, that it really does cost $700 or $900 to

    publish an article as Open Source) is good for our research
    community. It do not see how this argument is compatible with the ACM

    signing this letter.

    I believe that many of our activities, which we collectively trained

    ourselves to see as harmless administrative details of our research

    work, are in fact empowering the ACM to make those claims. Should we

    accept to give away our copyright, or payน unreasonable
    Gold Access author processing charges (APCs)?

    น: The SIGPLAN decision to cover APC costs for PACMPL articles is
    shielding many of us from paying APCs. But many of the smaller
    conferences, symposiums or workshops in our community whose
    proceedings are handled by the ACM are still limited to "pay
    $900" (or "pay $25 per page") as the only Open Access option, with
    copyright transfer as the only free choice, which is effectively
    keeping those proceedings Closed-Access.
-- Roberto Di Cosmo

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