Good Morning, I don't see any intervention of the motu-council here. You are talking about two different upstream projects,
falcon the language and falcon the whatever python script. As it is in the real world, one comes up with a good name, and another one comes up with the same name. What do to? I think first come first serve is the right thing to do. Now for the package question: It's bad, that you as upstream are at the same time the package maintainer, because now you can't think objectively about what to do. As a packagemaintainer I would name the package falconpl and move the binaries to falconpl too, despite what the upstream author had in mind. Or I would move the binaries from the other falcon upstream source to another name. This has nothing to do with upstream sources. Packagewise, a Conflict: falcon field in debian/control is not what you want, neither will Dennis wants a Conflict: field in his package, because you don't conflict only because of name clashes, you solve them as package maintainer. And I think this is your problem right now. Not a technical or motu problem... Regards, \sh On Mo, 2008-01-14 at 05:49 +0100, Giancarlo Niccolai wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > I have been told to forward this mail to the council, because it > contains accusation of CoC violation. Although I understand it is > likely that the council also read the MOTU list, I complain. > > Bests, > Giancarlo Niccolai. > > > - -------- Original Message -------- > Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Envelope-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Delivery-date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 18:32:22 -0800 > Received: from chlorine.canonical.com ([91.189.94.204]:40964) by > vps779.inmotionhosting.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>) id 1JEF7d-0007ws-FZ for > [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Sun, 13 Jan 2008 18:32:21 -0800 > Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=chlorine.canonical.com) > by chlorine.canonical.com with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>) id 1JEF7F-0001jv-NU; Mon, 14 > Jan 2008 02:31:57 +0000 > Received: from vps779.inmotionhosting.com ([74.124.203.179]) by > chlorine.canonical.com with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>) id 1JEF7A-0001il-78 for > [email protected]; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 02:31:52 +0000 > Received: from [217.133.50.123] (port=38196 helo=[192.168.1.3]) by > vps779.inmotionhosting.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim > 4.68) (envelope-from <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>) id 1JEF73-0007lJ-TJ for > [email protected]; Sun, 13 Jan 2008 18:31:46 -0800 > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 03:31:39 +0100 > From: Giancarlo Niccolai <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20071022) > MIME-Version: 1.0 > To: [email protected] > Subject: Naming problem for the "Falcon Programming Language" in > Ubuntu. > X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.0 > OpenPGP: id=12030B86; url=keyserver.ubuntu.com > X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include > it with any abuse report > X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - vps779.inmotionhosting.com > X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - lists.ubuntu.com > X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] > X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - falconpl.org > X-BeenThere: [email protected] > X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 > Precedence: list > List-Id: mailing list of the Masters Of The Universe > <ubuntu-motu.lists.ubuntu.com> > List-Unsubscribe: > <https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu>, > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > List-Archive: <https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-motu> > List-Post: <mailto:[email protected]> > List-Help: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > List-Subscribe: > <https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu>, > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Errors-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Hello; > > > I'd like to report a problem that is concerning the naming of two > packages that are being concurrently racing for inclusion in the very > next version of Ubuntu. > > I would argue that the way MOTU have managed the whole situation is > questionable under the "Ubuntu Code of Conduct" that we all have signed. > > I came to Ubuntu as I wanted to issue my first official release of the > Falcon Programming Language > > http://www.falconpl.org > > under the distro which I most respect, for its philosophy of mutual > help and support which is reflected in the Code of Conduct. The very > heart of my project is exactly "Respect for Developers", which drove > my will to write a language written not "to parse logs" or "to keep > finger warm", but exactly to help people write better programs, and to > help applications to be better applications. > > When I prospected my project in #ubuntu-motu I have been positively > accepted by the community; so I started writing a package; I searched > Debian and Ubuntu repositories, and the net in search of debian > packages named Falcon. Having not found them, I went for "falcon" as > package name. People in MOTU told me that the naming of the package > was fine, although some of them knew of a packaging utility written in > python that was called "falcon.py". I offered to change the name of > the package to falconpl, that was also the name of the site, but I > have been told (sorry if I call people by nick), by pochu, persia and > others that the name was ok, and to proceed. I have talked also with > Minghua and many others. > > So I uploaded the package on December 6 2007 in Revu. I got comments > through #ubuntu-motu channel, and I updated each time to fix problems > reported by MOTU reviewers. The records are in > > https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/174470 > http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?package=falcon > > On December the 20th 2007, a Motu (possibly Imbradon, but I am not > sure), told me that the project called "falcon" had possibly a > /usr/bin/falcon instance, which the Falcon programming language has > too (it's the main interpreter, as /usr/bin/python or /usr/bin/ruby). > As that was a tool used by some Motus to handle packages, although > there was no package being submitted up to that date, it would have > been a pity if there was a name clash in future, so I should have > sorted out the situation. > > I immediately mailed the author, sending him this mail: > > - -------- Original Message -------- > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 21:36:43 +0100 > From: Giancarlo Niccolai <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20071022) > MIME-Version: 1.0 > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: "Falcon" name in namespace. > X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.0 > OpenPGP: id=12030B86; url=keyserver.ubuntu.com > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > hello, > > I am the author of an open source software called "The Falcon > Programming Language". I am submitting a package to Ubuntu, and I > have been warned about possible namespace collisions. > > The main concern is about the "falcon" binary file, which is the > compiler/interprter of the language (like python), and other binary > names as libfalcon_engine.so. > > Up to date, several MOTUs have checked and reported there is no > current namespace clash. I am also willing to call my package > "falconpl", which is also the name of the site: > > http://www.falconpl.org > > However, it is necessary that we get in contact so that we can see if > there may be some name clash now or in the future, in order to avoid it. > > I am quite open to any proposal. > > I usually hang around in #ubuntu-motu or in #falconpl. > > Bests, > Giancarlo Niccolai. > ===================================================================== > > This my reply on its reply (I think it's useless to repaste it twice) > > - ------- Original Message -------- > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 18:15:34 +0100 > From: Giancarlo Niccolai <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) > MIME-Version: 1.0 > To: Dennis Kaarsemaker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: "Falcon" name in namespace. > References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > In-Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > Dennis Kaarsemaker wrote: > >> On do, 2007-12-20 at 21:36 +0100, Giancarlo Niccolai wrote: > >> > >> > >>>> I am the author of an open source software called "The Falcon > >>>> Programming Language". I am submitting a package to Ubuntu, > >>>> and I have been warned about possible namespace collisions. > >>>> > >>>> The main concern is about the "falcon" binary file, which is > >>>> the compiler/interprter of the language (like python), and > >>>> other binary names as libfalcon_engine.so. > >>>> > >> > >> The places where I see collisions are > >> > >> 1) The package name 2) /usr/{bin,share,share/doc}/falcon 3) > >> Manpage name > >> > >> > >>>> Up to date, several MOTUs have checked and reported there is > >>>> no current namespace clash. I am also willing to call my > >>>> package "falconpl", which is also the name of the site: > >>>> > >>>> http://www.falconpl.org > >>>> > >> > >> Correct, 'my' falcon has not been uploaded to Ubuntu yet for a > >> variety of reasons, so no conflict should exist. > >> > >> > >>>> However, it is necessary that we get in contact so that we > >>>> can see if there may be some name clash now or in the future, > >>>> in order to avoid it. > >>>> > >>>> I am quite open to any proposal. > >>>> > >> > >> Renaming the package would unfortunately only remove two naming > >> conflicts (package name and /usr/share/doc). The other conflict > >> can only be resolved by renaming one of the /usr/bin/falcon > >> files. > >> > >> I don't think it's really necessary to do that actually since > >> both falcons serve two distinct niches which will have little > >> overlap, if any. So my suggestion is to only rename the package > >> and not the binary unless you don't mind renaming your > >> /usr/bin/falcon to /usr/bin/falconpl > >> > >> What do you think? > >> > Renaming the package doesn't cause any trouble. Renaming /usr/bin/falcon > would cause a bit of harassment as the automated build environment > creates a lot of dependencies (i.e. windows build system requires > falcon.exe to be there, double click shortcuts, ini files), not to talk > about #!/usr/bin/falcon headers on scripts. > > About the overlap, if the language gets moment it may be virtually on > any machine, so it's a thing that we should try to work on. > > Bests, > Giancarlo. > > P.s. I should be around somewhere this night as "jonnymind" on IRC. > > ===================================================================== > > I had no other communication. Just, I had a glimpse on Imbradon's > notice on > revu's entry > tonight: > " > There is already another project in the archives named "falcon" this > source and > binarys will likely have to be renamed ( and make sure both are > co-installable ) > " > > Checking the "falcon" project, > https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/falcon > > I see that the package has been loaded on "2008-01-11"; it has been > reviewed > and fixed in the same day, and then immediately published. > > I have been in #MOTU about every day, and I offered full and open > co-operation both to the MOTU and to this project author; My project > was discussed > and seen by the persons involved in release, yet, they just created a > clean > package and immediately published it without even bothering notifying > this fact. > > The chat session of this night is even more enlightening: > > gen 13 20:01:04 jonnymind imbradon:I read your notice about "there > is already a package named falcon. > gen 13 20:01:38 jonnymind However, the notice is imprecise. > gen 13 20:02:24 * amarillion > ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) è entrato in #ubuntu-motu > gen 13 20:02:30 jonnymind the bug "needs packaging" for my project > has been opened in 2007, while the other package with the same name > was opened in 2008. > gen 13 20:03:18 * cassidy` si è disconnesso (Remote closed the > connection) > gen 13 20:03:24 jonnymind Moreover, I was negotiating with those > person about the package and binary names. We were talking about what > to do, then the conversation stopped and the other package has been > started. > gen 13 20:03:33 jonnymind I think we should discuss a bit the > namespace question. > gen 13 20:03:57 * cassidy ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) è > entrato in #ubuntu-motu > gen 13 20:06:02 jonnymind And also, frankly decide what to do > basing on an objective criterion. > gen 13 20:08:16 jonnymind imbradon:? > > <rip> > > en 13 23:18:06 ScottK jonnymind: Conflicts is more usually used for > packages that provide equivalent functionality. > gen 13 23:18:37 jonnymind ScottK: that is absolutely true. > gen 13 23:19:13 ScottK jonnymind: Have you discussed this with > imbrandon? > gen 13 23:19:26 * jekil ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) è entrato in > #ubuntu-motu > gen 13 23:19:38 pochu jonnymind: (I'm not blaming you, just in case > I'm not expressing well) > gen 13 23:20:46 Nafallo Seveas and imbrandon. > gen 13 23:20:52 * Knightlust si è disconnesso (Read error: 104 > (Connection reset by peer)) > gen 13 23:20:59 TheMuso s/c > gen 13 23:21:03 TheMuso ugh damn keyboard > gen 13 23:21:32 jonnymind ScottK: No, I have discussed with the > original author of the other falcon. > gen 13 23:21:45 pochu That's Seveas. > gen 13 23:21:46 jonnymind Well, I have started the discussion and > replied to its e-mail. > gen 13 23:21:55 jonnymind In which he stated he wasn't going to > make a package. > gen 13 23:22:07 ScottK jonnymind: Right, and he didn't > gen 13 23:22:15 pochu (which is true, the package was done by > imbrandon) > gen 13 23:22:24 pochu ScottK: you beat me > gen 13 23:22:33 jonnymind Ah. > gen 13 23:22:42 * pochu is eating pizza, so he's not that fast ;) > gen 13 23:22:50 ScottK jonnymind: My concern right now (not having > a great interest in either package) is that if you upload your package > as falcon to Debian, then it's going to cause trouble between Ubuntu > and Debian that it would be better to avoid. > gen 13 23:22:52 jonnymind So Imbradon knew there was a falcon > package made in december. > <rip> > gen 13 23:23:15 Seveas packages for 'the other falcon' have existed > since 2006 > <rip> > gen 13 23:25:52 jonnymind Seveas: again; the package here is named > falconpl now. > gen 13 23:25:59 jonnymind That closes the question. > gen 13 23:26:30 Nafallo both packages use /usb/bin/falcom? :-) > gen 13 23:26:36 Nafallo s/m/n > gen 13 23:26:42 jonnymind I do. > > <rip> > > gen 13 23:59:19 pochu And out of curiosity: a package needs two > ACKs to be uploaded to Universe... who did ACK falcon other than > imbrandon? > gen 13 23:59:22 jonnymind Nafallo: I am not changing 6 system > installation scripts and 300 doc pages for this. > gen 13 23:59:30 Nafallo pochu: *sigh* you probably know exactly > what I mean, so why even argue about it? :-) > gen 13 23:59:36 jonnymind Someone will find a way to package falcon > when it is included in the other distros. > gen 13 23:59:57 Seveas pochu, could be persia, I did the final > checks with them > gen 14 00:00:26 jonnymind I started packaging from ubuntu because I > beleived in ubuntu philosophy of respect. > gen 14 00:00:28 jonnymind ... > gen 14 00:00:37 pochu Seveas: I'd be surprised if it was persia > since persia was reviewing jonnymind's falcon package. > gen 14 00:01:42 pochu And since there's no REVU upload for it to > look at, nor ACK in the needs-packaging bug... > gen 14 00:01:51 * keffie_jayx si è disconnesso (Connection timed out) > gen 14 00:04:25 Nafallo pochu: I just check my logs. persia :-) > gen 14 00:04:41 * Kmos ([EMAIL PROTECTED]/kmos) è entrato in > #ubuntu-motu > gen 14 00:04:47 pochu Crap. > gen 14 00:04:59 * pochu kicks persia :) > > ... > > ================================================= > > I have a "falconpl" ubuntu package with the "Conflict: falcon" entry > in debian/control sitting on my hard disk; > it was a mediated solution suggested and required by some enlighted > MOTUs, and I gladly accepted; > but in the moment I was going to upload it I received this notification: > > - ------ Original Message -------- > Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Envelope-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Delivery-date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 14:55:44 -0800 > From: Nafallo Bjälevik <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > <rip headers> > X-Generated-By: Launchpad (canonical.com) > > > This package source and binary needs to be renamed. We already have > falcon. Please make sure they are co-installable. > > ====================================================== > > This was right in the middle of our discussion about name clashes and > Conflict: field. > > > > The point is: I have opened a falcon package in Debian, and I will do > it with other distros as well, as Fedora, > Suse and Mandrake. The falcon programming language is already > installed in production environments under Windows and > MacOS; I would have gladly mediated some solution for Ubuntu > "/usr/bin/falcon" naming problem, but this > possibility has been willfully snatched away for unknown reasons. As > the space for a mediation has beenremoved by this behavior which > is intentionally breaking the Code of Conduct, I am forced to > resume the technical reasons why I ask to be granted the > /usr/bin/falcon program name: > > 1) Falcon P.L. is a stand-alone binary application; falcon.py is a > python script proxied by an alias command. > 2) The "falcon" (langauge) command is common to several architectures, > including Windows and MacOS, some > of which have special handling of application registration which is > part of our project. > 3) Falcon codebase is several hundred thousands lines and growing. > Many of this lines refer to the name of > the main interpreter. falcon.py script is a relatively small > application. > 4) Falcon language (to be found as "falcon" command) is currently used > in production environments, and changing > its name may affect third party applications. > 5) Falcon language documentation is several hundreds pages long, and > reviewing it in search of the main interpreter > name would be an extensive activity. > 6) Falcon language copyright goes since 2004, with activity actually > started in 2003. Falcon.py has been started in > 2005-2006. > 7) Falcon is known as script language name in Wikipedia > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scripting_language) > 8) Falcon language Packages for other distros (i.e.) RPM will be > organized having /usr/bin/falcon. > 9) Although user count between the two projects is currently not > directly comparable, the number of potential > users of a repository utility for a specific subset of debian > distributions and a multiplatform scripting > language is not a match. > 10) Users already using Falcon would be impacted by the main > interpreter name change, as it is the base to > launch scripts and other applications, falcon.py script is only > conventionally summoned with /usr/bin/falcon > at the command line by end-users. > > It seems there isn't a single technical/objective reason why the > falcon.py script project should be granted /usr/bin/falcon name, > except for a direct involvement of some of the MOTUs in its release. > > I openly admit that I have opened a package request on Debiabn with > the name "falcon" as I knew about this package being just snapped > in without an open discussion. I am still ready to negotiate the > package name, as *I* do beleive in the principles written on the > Code of Conduct, that I have signed, and I don't want to cause > unnecessary problems in a project that I still regard as a bright > example of what mankind should be one day. > > Yet, the "falcon" command will be present in many distributions, and > it is now available in many environments and O/S. I hope the > community discuss openly and peacefully this argument considering > the technical aspects of the question. > > Best regards, > Giancarlo Niccolai. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - -- > Ubuntu-motu mailing list > [email protected] > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > iD8DBQFHium95nwsoBIDC4YRAualAJ4oXcSg8s6fp/X9MtM2jZOqFy+hLgCbB3zn > Fj30lrA5g4hxLoKNjLsShxY= > =55Ii > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > -- SysAdmin, OSS Developer GPG-Key ID: 0xC098EFA8 Fingerprint: 3D8B 5138 0852 DA7A B83F DCCB C189 E733 C098 EFA8 http://www.sourcecode.de/ -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list [email protected] Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
