I will not disagree with David on the popularity of 40K and WHFB, there is no argument in there.
But popularity does not means that 40K or WHFB are good games, the game mechanic is broken, period. Every time GW release a new rules set, the armies became unbalanced, and each time GW release a new army book or a new edition of an army book, that make previous released army book (same edition, different races) unbalanced. The newly released army book usually have some powerful stuff with trump the previous released army books. And then there is the scalability problem, 2000 - 3000 points game are fine, but that is it. The more the points the longer each player takes their turn, the I go and then you go mechanic are broken. For a 10,000 points game, it will take over hours for each side to take their move. And then there is no point in doing 500 points game, they are just too random. Then there is the cost of getting into the game, you need to spend at least $200 for an army, and then they are not even painted. Then there is the time needed to assemble them, and it is just one army. By the time you almost got finished with your army, then new rules came out and new miniatures came out and then you have to buy new rules book ($50 for the rules, $25 for the army books) and new miniatures. Old miniatures become obsolete, and you are paying $12 - $18 for a metal miniature (leaders and lords), and plastics are like $35 for 16 figures, and it is only plastics... All this cost add up and it is all fine if it is the only game you play and you spend all your time doing it. It also maybe fun, if you like painting miniatures. Like McDonald (yes the hamburger place), GW, 40K and WHFB have a place in gaming history, there is no argument about it, McDonald make fast food into an industry, and GW, 40K and WHFB make miniatures/ tabletop gaming into an industry. But is McDonald consider good food? Did 40K and WHFB consider good games? Your mileage may varies... Don't get me wrong, GW have the best world/universe/theme and IP, but do they produce good games? Yea, a couple, but that is history, and all those good games (SH, Blood Bowl, Warhammer Quest to name a few), GW deliberately get rid of them (let them out of print). Is 40K and WHFB good games? I don't think so, they are just money making devise and example of good marketing, nothing more, nothing less. But as all know, different people have different taste, some like Magic the Gathering, some like Warhammer. --- Ken --- On Sat, Sep 5, 2009 at 10:22 AM, David Douglas <[email protected]>wrote: > I strongly disagree with Kenneth about Wh40k and WHFB. No other miniatures > game has attracted so many players (estimates are in the hundreds of > thousands) over such a long period of time across so many different > editions. The game is so popular that mainstream video games are regularly > released based on the IP. *Most* non-online game retailers around the > country would admit that GW products make them their money and allow them to > sell the other stuff they carry (this is based on my personal interactions > with dozens of FLGS owners around the country as part of a military family > and obviously might not hold true in Utah). > > As for the $100 price tag. The components in SH 3rd ed. are far superior in > quality to that of previous editions. 2nd edition retailed at $70, if I > remember correctly. Add in standard inflation (and particularly board-game > inflation) over the last 10 years and it's easy to see where the extra $30 > comes from. The miniatures alone are that much based on current GW plastics > prices. It's not like GW is hocking it for $200. > > Also: "lack of support"? I think we've all gotten far too addicted to FFG > style games with 15 expansions coming out octo-annually. I'm perfectly > content with a game that is self-contained. > > On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 4:48 PM, Kenneth Li <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Well, don't let all these negative comment that I made discourage you at >> all, I maybe wrong and yes, I am still sour for that Talisman purchase a few >> years back... >> >> $80 at BGR is still a good price, consider all those people paying full >> retail plus shipping to get one. >> >> But currently, I don't know, it is so nice to own one, yet it is so >> expensive... >> >> --- Ken --- >> >> >> On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 4:35 PM, Casey Rogers <[email protected]>wrote: >> >>> Those are some good points Ken. Hopefully I can try your copy out before >>> Christmas to see if it's worth adding to my Christmas list. >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 4:33 PM, Kenneth Li <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> When is GW supporting anything? Even Warhammer and 40K are just games >>>> that let them sell more miniatures, Both system are all broken beyond all >>>> repair, and both system are so out dated (it is unsalable), it is basically >>>> a hobby for the fan boys with all their hard earned cash... $12 for a metal >>>> miniature? Sure, are they made of silver or gold? Not even gold or silver >>>> plated... >>>> >>>> Then it is the question of when this 3rd edition will be all gone? >>>> Several years ago, I stupidly brought their 3rd edition reprint of Talisman >>>> for $75 plus shipping. And now it only worth around $45, while several more >>>> new edition of Talisman have be released and then FFG take over... And all >>>> knows the story... >>>> >>>> And yes, GW has not re-release the re-release again (that is their >>>> promise), but at that high price of an item, how long will it took them to >>>> sell out? At an economy like this? a couple of months? and then what? >>>> >>>> A game without support, even if it is a good game, is as good as dead. >>>> Sure they want our money, but then after a year or two, nobody else is >>>> playing it any more (just like my first edition sitting in my closet), and >>>> they don't care. It is us gamers who cares, but they have our money already >>>> :) >>>> >>>> --- Ken --- >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 4:21 PM, Casey Rogers <[email protected]>wrote: >>>> >>>>> Oh I don't doubt Games Workshop is hyping it up to sell as many copies >>>>> as possible. But knowing GW's lack of support for anything other than >>>>> Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000, I bet as soon as this 3rd edition is gone >>>>> it >>>>> will be a long time before we see another one in print. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 4:13 PM, Kenneth Li <[email protected]>wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Well to tell the truth, I have not. >>>>>> >>>>>> But my collection at BGG is open for all to look at and also our Utah >>>>>> County Boardgamers Association guild at BGG can pull all our collections >>>>>> together into one collection pool. >>>>>> >>>>>> So that argument of not knowing somebody have the game does not >>>>>> explain the reason why it is not on the table... >>>>>> >>>>>> The more I think about it, the more I feel like it is a hoax :) The >>>>>> current re-release it is. More of a hype while is like all hypes at BGG >>>>>> :) >>>>>> >>>>>> --- Ken --- >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 4:03 PM, Casey Rogers >>>>>> <[email protected]>wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> You haven't played it? If I had known somebody had it I would've >>>>>>> asked to try it a long time ago. It is considered a classic among >>>>>>> Ameritrash >>>>>>> circles, and over the past few years it has routinely sold for near >>>>>>> $100 on >>>>>>> eBay. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 3:54 PM, Kenneth Li <[email protected]>wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Some how I am thinking this release is a hoax or some marketing >>>>>>>> scheme... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I have the 1st Edition sitting in my closet for more than 10 years >>>>>>>> and since then, nobody has ask to play with it, which I don't know >>>>>>>> why... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> And then suddenly when they announce a re-release, and then interest >>>>>>>> has spike to an extreme, people are waving, people are scared, posting >>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>> BGG that they cannot get one, Games Workshop England (England only) has >>>>>>>> announced it sold out all the online copies, and the only way to get >>>>>>>> one is >>>>>>>> through a local store (Note that this all is in England only). People >>>>>>>> posted >>>>>>>> that it is limited to a certain numbers, rumors fly around on how many >>>>>>>> copies are printed and how limited it is. It all sound like the end of >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> world. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Then, Games Workshop in the US still has copies to sell, and BGR has >>>>>>>> at least 6 more copies to be sold locally, the others are allocated to >>>>>>>> online sale..., and shops in Utah County are ordering boat load of >>>>>>>> them (all >>>>>>>> the stores that I talked to said they are getting at least 25 copies, >>>>>>>> some >>>>>>>> even 35 copies), are they all spoken for?? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> With $100 for a game (well BGR is selling at 20% discount of $80), >>>>>>>> how many can the current market bear? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> More than 10 years ago, I paid around $30 for my copy and now, price >>>>>>>> has rise 3 fold, so is it worth it? Is it a rave or it is a true great >>>>>>>> game? >>>>>>>> If so why then my 1st Edition not get any play time? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Is it worth it? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I don't know. Can any body tell me? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> :) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> --- Ken --- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 3:12 PM, Mark Crane <[email protected]>wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> It's on the shelf at http://boardgamerevolution.com and at a very >>>>>>>>> good >>>>>>>>> price (compared to retail). That box is *heavy*. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> > > > > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "utah county boardgamers association" group. 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