Professor George Ayittey
The Americans attacked a government in Somalia and up today 15 years later
Somalia is still suffering. You have decided to use your position to preach
that African nations must be ran from the Same system running Somalia. Which
explains why you support the attack on Zimbabwe as well. Few days ago you
stated that the Kikuyus also must be allowed to separate from Kenya and run
their own affairs for you today love Somalia as a model. Can you kindly post in
this forum a development that has taken place in Somalia in the last 15 years
so far? Somalia is a nation that we can use as a living example of how Western
influence can fail Africa, it is very sad that you have decided to flip and use
this nation as a successful story. But let me ask you only two questions, why
didn't you plead for Northern Ireland to use cultural leaders? Why does your
solution only work in African nations?
One can wonder why you hate your continent that much.
EM
Toronto
The Mulindwas Communication Group
"With Yoweri Museveni, Uganda is in anarchy"
Groupe de communication Mulindwas
"avec Yoweri Museveni, l'Ouganda est dans l'anarchie"
----- Original Message -----
From: George Ayittey
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2007 10:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Mwananchi] Re: [Fikara] Does the rule of law pose a threat to
Africa?
Adaoma,
Tell us what YOUR solution to the Somali crisis is.
I will insist on this.
George Ayittey,
Washington, DC
nwaakwukwo wrote:
"The African Union or the United Nations should be given the mandate,
backed with a loan, to take over Somalia and establish a Confederal
government, led by the current transitional government at Baidoi. Its
role must be severely limited to assembling a strong military force to
rid the country of warlords and establish peace. Once accomplished, the
military force should be disbanded. If such a force cannot be assembled,
mercenaries may be hired, as Sierra Leone did in 1998. The next task
should be infrastructure: roads, airports, seaports, etc. The Somali
will do the rest in developing the country. If this costs $1 billion, it
should be regarded as a national debt the Somali would have to repay.
And if this model works, it should be extended to the Democratic
Republic of Congo and other failed states in Africa." George
Ayitteyhttp://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Mwananchi/ message/66031 George, here is
the quotation of you showing that you support government. End of your
libertarian lies. You are no libertarian. What you support is private ownership
and private property. What you support is western capitalist going into places
like a destabalized Somalia and being able to easily secure resources. You have
also stated that you support the government of Botswana. Botswana has a law
against expropriation, which also enables western capitalist to easily secure
resources. Your cover is blown George. It is evident to this me and to this
list whose interests you support. Finally, in Zimbabwe, after Rhodes stole land
from the indigenous people of Zimbabwe, laws were put in place to keep the
stolen land. What about the laws (oral or otherwise) that were violated to
steal land from the indigenous people of Zimbabwe...the Ndebele and the Shona?
My answer to the question is that any law that supports the landless of the
indigenous people of Zimbabwe (or any othe part of Africa) and denies them of
the use of resources for their own benefit does indeed pose a threat to the
livelihood and quality of life of the people of Africa. The semantic haggling
of definitions of laws, that George presents is irrelevant and really has no
part in this discussion. It is much ado about nothing.Adaoma
George Ayittey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Adaoma,
Look at the headers: Does the rule of law pose a threat to Africa?
This thread started when I cautioned that we must be careful about which
LAW we are talking about because there is NATURAL LAW, CUSTOMARY LAW and
STATUTORY LAW. I posted a write-up to explain these concepts.
Immediately, Lil Joe launched a scurrilous attack on me, calling me all
sorts of names for citing Michael van Notten as "the authority" on
Somalia. Naturally, you did not see that attack on me. Instead, you
piled on, calling me a "flip flopper" because what I wrote about
"statelessness" was in contradiction to an earlier artile of mine
calling for US intervention in Somalia. Then Lil Joe chimed in, claiming
I support US-backed Ethiopian intervention in Somalia. Nonsense.
I have every reason to be angry because, first, both of you know NOTHING
about statelessness in Africa. Just because Ndi Igbo have no kings or
monarch doesn't mean they are "republicans." Neither can you claim that
Somalis are "libertarians." The meanings of certain Western terms do not
translate well in an African context. It is annoying for you people to
PRETEND to know something you don't. Lil Joe was asked what aspect of
traditional Somali society did van Notten get wrong. He did not answer
that question because he couldn't. And if he did not know the answer,
then why attack me for quoting van Notten?
Second, it is ANNOYING when you people analyze every African problem
through an ideological (Marxist) and geo-political (US imperialism)
prism, labeling anyone who disagrees with you "an imperialist lackey"
"serving Western interests." I do not agree with every aspect of U.S.
foreign policy but I am smart enough to know that the U.S. promotes its
interests in Africa -- just as the Chinese, the Arabs, the French and
other foreign entities do. As such, it is the height of stupendous
naivete to belive that anything that diminishes US interests in Africa
will be "good" for Africa. Such stupidity.
You CANNOT analyze African events solely through the lense of U.S.
imperialism, which is what you people do. You have been told many times
at this forum that Africans see things a little differently than you.
Yet, you persist in your imperious ways. You know more about Africa than
native born Africans. Such arrogance.
Third, even more infuriating is the fact that you people know little
about Somalia. There are two Somalias: Traditional Somali society which
is peaceful and stable and then there is modern Somalia, centered around
Mogadishu, which is in chaos. For the past 16 bloody years, warlords and
the political elite have been jostling for POWER. On FIFTEEN occasions,
Somali politicians, warlords and elites FAILED at reconciliation
attempts because every educated buffoon wants to be president.
I wrote that if, AFTER ALL THESE FAILED ATTEMPTS, Somali politicians
and intellectuals can't resolve the crisis, then bring in outside
inervention. People are FED UP with the violence, carnage and
destruction. Let the AU or the UN take over the country and run it along
the ethos of TRADITIONAL Somali society.
Only a moron would claim Ayittey backs US intervention in Somalia or
that Ayittey, who preaches African solutions, is flip flopping.
George Ayittey,
Washington, DC
nwaakwukwo wrote:
> George, Unlike you, Lil Joe never pretends to know what he does not
> know. In his humility he has said, "I don't know", more times that I
> have heard you utter it. I have never heard you utter it. However,
> despite your ad hominems of "jackass" and "moron" towards Lil Joe, he
> is correct and you are wrong. Lil Joe, as a communist, certainly knows
> something as fundamental to the economic theory of Marxism as
> "stateless" and has explained it in many instances on these
> lists. Secondarily, and most importantly, Lil Joe is correct in his
> saying that Ndiigbo (Igbo people)are "republicans". They refer to
> themselves as "rugged republicans". The has a history, and
> demonstrated through many literary writings, that they traditionally
> hold individual achievement and independence in high esteem while
> delicately bala! nce the value of the group. Ndiigbo have a saying
> "Ndiigbo enweghi eze", which is translated to say "The Igbo people
> have no king". As, such they are critical thinkers, who master the art
> of conversation, oration and debate. They have no army nor police
> force. Historically, their religion was so integrated into their
> daily lives that their priests were influential in decision making,
> along with those who were considered seasoned and wise...and there was
> much order. But, you have shown that in Somalia, you did not support
> "statelessness". You advocated government...the Transnational Federal
> Government that was the puppet regime backed by the US outfitted
> Ethiopian forces. Lil Joe brought out this hypocrisy in you back in
> July of this year. You got angry then. No surpise that you are again,
> angry.You are naked in the market place.Adaoma
>
> George Ayittey wrote:
>
> Lil Joe, Yes, you are right. I get angry at con artists who
> PRETEND they know more about Africa than their own
> ignorance. You don't know the difference between traditional
> Somali society and modern Somalia. You don't know that
> traditional Somali society is "stateless." Nor do you
> understand what "statelessness" means. Statelessness has
> nothing to do with U.S. imperialism. Only a jackass would
> mention the two in the same breath. You were pointedly asked
> by MDM to tell us what Michael van Notten got wrong about
> traditional Somali society. You FLED because you know squat
> about the subject! Now, you claim Igbo society is
> republican. Tell us HOW it is republican. Look, Lil Joe,
> don't try and con us by making stupid comments on a subject
> you know NOTHING about. George Ayittey,Washington,
> DC [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -----
>
>
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> From: "Lil Joe"
> Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Date: 11/02/2007 10:02AM
> Subject: Re: [Mwananchi] Re: [Fikara] Does the
> rule of law pose a threat to Africa?
>
> Seems the little lackey Ayittey got angry! His
> "African" solutions to African problems doesn't
> derive from himself as an "African", but from a
> European! Calling me a "jackass" and playing the
> clairvoyant mind reader of what I know and don't
> know doesn't alter the fact.
>
> I didn't say that Somalia is the ONLY stateless
> society in Africa. That is as usual one of
> Ayittey's straw man diversion from the subject.
> But, if Ayittey doesn't understand the difference
> between the Igbo, whose tribal society was
> republican, but are know part of the Nigerian
> nation state, and Somalia, he doesn't show ANY
> knowledge of Africa.
>
> The issue of Somalia today is the US sponsored
> Ethiopian military occupation and war, and that
> George flipped from advocating a "stateless
> society" in Somalia, because at the time that was
> the US position on Somalia, to an advocate of
> central government when the US flipped to sponsor
> invasion and set up a quisling regime.
>
> Lil Joe
> On 11/2/07, George Ayittey
> wrote:
>
> Lil Joe,
> If you don't know anything about a
> subject, you don't know it. Stop your
> buffoonish pretense. You made a complete
> jackass of yourself with what you wrote
> below.You were asked to provide a
> synopsis of von Notten's book and tell
> us what he got wrong about Somali
> society. You don't have the book,
> haven't read and all you did was to
> provide us links to reviews. You know a
> fig about Somali society, so you can't
> tell us what van Notten got wrong about
> Somali society. What a con artist!You
> know NOTHING about "stateless societies"
> in Africa. The Somali are NOT the only
> stateless society in Africa. The Igbo,
> the Kru, the Kpelle, the Kikuyu, the Ga,
> among others, are also stateless
> societies. You don't even know that
> stateless means. Just because some
> American Libertarians write favorably
> about the Somali, the Igbo or the Kikuyu
> does not mean these people have no
> cultural/political heritage.What did van
> Notten get wrong about TRADITIONAL
> Somali society? Answer the question,
> damn it. If you can't answer that
> question, you can't answer it. Don't try
> to con us because con-men belong in
> jail.George Ayittey,
> Washington, DC
> Lil Joe wrote:
>
> > I don't have the book at hand but did
> > provide links to reviews:
> > .http://explorersfoundation.
> > org/glyphery/139.html
> >
> > Thank you for asking my opinion, but I
> > only posted the information
> > to situate Ayitteys references to the
> > book as the authority he
> > uses to attack African central
> > governments. The school is called
> > "anarcho-capitalism", and they used
> > Somalia as stateless as
> > an example of it's benefits to
> > transnational corporations not having
> > to go through "governments" to invest
> > and produce in such Third
> > World countries. This is similar to
> > Milton Friedman's use of
> > Hong Kong (prior to reincorporation
> > into China proper) as his monetarist
> > model.Since Somalia is presently un! der
> > a quisling regime, established
> > by the US/Ethiopian armed invasion
> > and occupation, the myth
> > of Somalia-anarcho-capitalism is moot.
> > I think time would better
> > be spent collecting and analyzing
> > information concerning what is
> > going on in Somalia today - the
> > occupation and war of resistance,
> > because that is where your help is
> > needed.Thank you in return for asking,
> > and the various posts you have
> > addressed to me. I feel you, my
> > brother.Lil Joe
> > On 11/1/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > wrote:
> >
> > Lil Joe,Thank you for
> > bringing the book The Law of
> > the Somalis to our
> > attention. For those of us
> > who have not read the book,
> > could you provide a brief
> > synopsis? Could you also
> > give us your critique as to
> > where the author is wrong
> > about Somali society?MDM
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Lil Joe
> >
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > Sent: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 3:50
> > pm
> > Subject: Re: [Mwananchi] Re:
> > [Fikara] Does the rule of
> > law pose a threat to Africa?
> >
> > Comrades,Is this the kind of
> > stupidity that Ayittey
> > teaches his students? In
> > the first place, Ayittey the
> > imperialist lackey that he
> > is only uses
> > reactionary sources,
> > primarily Micheal van
> > Notten, an ideologist,
> > who opposed Somali having a
> > state, endorsed the anarchy
> > there
> > prior to the ICU
> > establishment of a central
> > government. To do this,
> > Notten made up his
> > classification of "types of
> > laws", which the
> > lackey Ayittey regurgitates
> > without providing any
> > anthropological
> > data from Somalia or
> > elsewhere in Africa. None
> > whatsoever! See:
> >
> >
> > The Law of the Somalis, by
> > Michael Van Notten
> >
> > tribal law enhanced for
> > world market participation
> >
> > Michael van Notten's, The
> > Law of the Somalis: A Stable
> > Foundation for Economic
> > Development in the Horn of
> > Africa, was published by the
> > Red Sea Press, Inc. in 2005
> > .http://explorersfoundation.
> > org/glyphery/139.htmlOn the
> > basis of this book, not
> > empirical work in the field,
> > Ayittey as
> > an imperialist lacke! y
> > opposed the ICU, saying
> > Somalia people
> > don't have, or or savages
> > naturally opposed to civil
> > governments
> > and protection of national
> > laws. Then, when the US
> > imperialists,
> > Ayitteys sponsors, who
> > placed their investments in
> > the gangster
> > warlords, once those lords
> > were defeated turned to the
> > defunct
> > "transitional federal
> > government" - you got it, so
> > did George.
> > The imperialists armed,
> > financed and backed Ethiopia
> > for decades,
> > and now used them to invade
> > Somalia and prop-up this TFG
> >
> > quisling regime by armed
> > occupation. Ayittey endorsed
> > this
> > as well, ignoring his own
> > former "arguments" against
> > central
> > government in Somalia.Now,
> > as though we would forget
> > who van Nottin is, and how
> > Ayittey regurgitated his
> > assertions in the past, the
> > final point
> > is that Ayittey uses this
> > anarcho-capitalist
> > ideologists as a
> > source of authority for his
> > demagogic pseudo-juridical
> > rant
> > below. But, the reason
> > Caroline of Canada posted
> > her Africa
> > denigrating clap trap about
> > "rule of law" in Africa and
> > Ayittey
> > of New York chimed in as an
> > "African", is because Eddie
> > Patricia Anderson and Eddie
> > Cross posted an article and
> > comments against African
> > land expropriations of those
> >
> > of Anderson, Cross and
> > Caroline's kith and kin who
> > had
> > viciously expropriated
> > Africa lands in the first
> > place. Thus,
> > Anderson's clap trap about
> > the "rule of law" not
> > existing in
> > Zimbabwe. In actuality, the
> > land expropriations are in
> > keeping with parliamentary
> > legislation and law,
> > therefore
> > the rule of law is to carry
> > out these expropriation and
> > the
> > settlers and their
> > lickspittles who resist
> > should be jailed,
> > or shot on the spot as
> > violators of the rule of
> > law!See Mwananchi Thread:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Mwananchi/
> > message/89324Ayittey - the
> > imperialist lackey
> > ideologists - is as always
> > presenting himself as an
> > "African" - but the reason
> > that this
> > article is posted by
&! gt; > Caroline of Canada, is to
> > denounce the
> > land expropriations in
> > Zimbabwe, to support
> > Anderson of
> > Britain saying that there is
> > no "rule of law in
> > Zimbabwe", as
> > though the legal
> > expropriations are illegal!
> > So, here's were
> > Georgie boy comes in as
> > their lackey, pretending to
> > be an
> > African though quoting
> > Europeans as his authority.
> > Ayittey
> > writes as his "definition"
> > of legislated laws in Africa
> > - read:
> > Zimbabwe, writing"Statutory
> > law is the politician's law,
> > passed by parliament or
> > governemnt. In most places
> > in Africa, that law is
> > written by politicians to
> > serve their own
> > interests."He makes this
> > assertion, but instead of
> > offering data and
> > arguments - he never does -
> > he regurgitates Notten as
> > the
> > basis for his attack on
> > parliamentary legislation
> > and laws
> > that puts African peoples
> > ahead of European economic
> > and political interests
> > (neo-colonialism). Ayittey
> > is a neo-
> > colonial stooge, and this
> > explains why he runs so
> > quickly
> > to eat and regurgitate the
> > collective vomit on this
> > list by Anderson of
> > Britain, Caroline of Canada
> > and Cross the Rhodesian
> > capitalist who claims to be
> > heir to Robert the Bruce,
> > king
> > of Scotland.Watch what Chifu
> > has to say!Lil Joe
=== message truncated ===
________________________________________! __________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
_______________________________________________
Ugandanet mailing list
[email protected]
http://kym.net/mailman/listinfo/ugandanet
% UGANDANET is generously hosted by INFOCOM http://www.infocom.co.ug/
The above comments and data are owned by whoever posted them (including
attachments if any). The List's Host is not responsible for them in any way.
---------------------------------------
