George Okello
Continue with the list
A} Falkland Islands
B} Vietnam
{c} Iraq
D} Afghanistan
E} Libya
F} Palestine
G} Somalia
H} Yemen
I} Central African republic
J} Rwanda
K} Syria
L} South African apartheid
Do you need more? And what is common in all these elements is that these
crimes have been committed by Western governments, when you use examples as
of The Natives it becomes a laughing joke, George Okello do you know a
single person that has ever been put to jail due to the mistreatment of The
Natives? And I need only one.
Restorative justice indeed !!!!
EM
On the 49th
Thé Mulindwas Communication Group
"With Yoweri Museveni and Dr. Kiiza Besigye Uganda is in anarchy"
Kuungana Mulindwa Mawasiliano Kikundi
"Pamoja na Yoweri Museveni na Dk. Kiiza Besigye Uganda ni katika machafuko"
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of George Okello
Sent: Monday, October 14, 2013 7:28 AM
To: ugandans-at-heart
Subject: Re: {UAH} Re:Africans urge ICC not to try heads of state
Edward Mulindwa,
Again you are rambling here. I don't have time, but just to correct a few
glaring errors or assumptions you make:
1. The precursors of the ICC, the Nurermberg Tribunals and the Special
International Tribunal for EX-Yugoslavia tried only white men and women. No
African appeared before these courts.
2. The Masai case has been prosecuted in the English Courts- indeed it is
still being heard in the English Courts.
3. In another land-mark decision,in the case of the Mau-Mau Five, the
British courts removed all immunity by the British Crown from crimes
committed against the Kikuyu peasants and pro-independence veterans.
Effectively, this case now means all crimes committed in the colonial era
can now be prosecuted in the English courts and this is now happening. The
Banyoro I believe have taken precisely just such a step.
4. The case of the Diego Garcia residents who were expelled from their
Indian Ocean island homes to make way for the building of an American naval
base, is still before the English courts.
5. Bob Astles was tried and acquitted in Uganda. As a law student, I worked
as a researcher for one of the judges in the case.Bob Astles can not be
tried again for the same offences in Uganda because of the "double jeopardy"
rule in English Common Law which states that a person can not be tried twice
for the same offence. However please note that this rule has since been
removed by the British parliament, so there is a distinct posibility that we
can still put Bob Astles on trial here in the UK
These are just a few examples that eliminate your rather simplistic
arguements.
On the debate about RESTORATIVE V RETRIBUTIVE JUSTICE, I will give you
examples of how these principles have been applied in the Canadian courts
and in the American courts with respect to the native Indians, and in the
Australian courts in relations to the aborigines.
George Okello
On Mon, Oct 14, 2013 at 12:05 PM, George Okello <[email protected]> wrote:
Bobby Musoke,
Show me anything from the website you highlight that I have copied and
pasted. Even just one single sentence, please. I wrote that piece in 25
minutes, in one sitting, without referring to any other material. I think
you seriously under-estimate my intellectual capacity, and this is a serious
error on your part. For your information, I don't copy and paste. People
copy and paste from me instead. And I always attribute where I quote or use
someone else. I consider myself a serious scholar and if you are not aware,
plagiarism, which you are accusing me of, isa very serious crime of
dishonesty and no serious scholar would even attempt it. You would never
see me lifting other peoples writings and claiming them as my own.On a
recent debate on revolutionary violence, I made sure and explained that I
based my analysis on Karl Marx's theory of dialectical materialism- I did
not claim to have invented the theory myself.
George Okello.
On Mon, Oct 14, 2013 at 10:45 AM, Bobby Musoke <[email protected]>
wrote:
Mr Paul Mugerwa,
I am not sure where you get the idea you and me are in this together.
Maybe you and George Okello could be in this together.
Nze ndeka ssebo.
On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 7:26 PM, Paul Mugerwa <[email protected]> wrote:
Yeah right; just remember we are in this together brother. It is no longer a
matter of individual opinion. T's "musota muntamu."
------------------------------
On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 4:05 PM PDT Bobby Musoke wrote:
>Tontawanya Mr Paul Mugerwa.
>
>You are entitled to your opinion.
>
>
>On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 6:57 PM, Paul Mugerwa <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>> Bobby,
>>
>> Often people don't visit the cited website unless it is about sex or
>> pornography. We humans are a mess! So I still think GO did a good job.
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 3:26 PM PDT Bobby Musoke wrote:
>>
>> >Mr George Okello,
>> >
>> >Instead of producing that long narrative about the ICC you could have
told
>> >the forumists that all that information can be found at
>> >
>> >http://www.icc-cpi.int/en_menus/icc/Pages/default.aspx
>> >
>> >
>> >You are not engaging in rocket science by copying and pasting what is
>> >availabe on that site.
>> >
>> >
>> >Tuleke nawe!
>> >
>> >
>> >On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 10:26 AM, George Okello <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Ocen Nekyon,
>> >
>> > Charles Taylor has been tried by the International Special Court for
>> > Sierra Leone. This court was set up to specifically try crimes
>> > committed during the Sierra Leone civil war. It is similar to the
>> > Internal Special Tribunal for Rwanda, and the International Special
>> > Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia.
>> >
>> > The genesis of all three courts is the Nueremberg Special Courts that
>> > were set up at the end of the second world war to try Nazi war
>> > criminals. Terrible crimes had been committed before and during the
>> > war and yet there were no llegal mechanisms to try such crimes at the
>> > time.
>> >
>> > Apart from piracy at sea, the notion of an "international crime" was
>> > not universally accepted in international law and this lacuna became
>> > more evident with the difficulties experienced in addressing the
>> > crimes committed by the Nazi's. Before Nuremberg, any form of
>> > international justice was in effect just a victor's justice as
>> > happened at the end of the second world war where the defeated German
>> > war criminals were prosecuted under British or French laws, rather
>> > than under international law.
>> >
>> > But the experience of Nuremberg itself was not wholly satisfactory, in
>> > that it still manifested all of the elements of a victor's justice in
>> > that only German war criminals were selectively tried (scientists and
>> > big businessmen were not). This gave rise to a need for a coalescence
>> > of piece-meal efforts at the creation of international crimes that
>> > were trans-national and were not confined to borders.
>> >
>> > This is what led to the creation of the International Criminal Court
>> > by the Rome Statute in 1986. Certain crimes became universally
>> > recognised as universal crimes triable by an international criminal
>> > court that would have universal jurisdiction.
>> >
>> > Specifically the following crimes were created by the Rome Statute:
>> > Genocide,
>> > War Crimes and Crimes Against Humanity.
>> >
>> > The second reason for the creation of the ICC was the need to have
>> > just one functioning international court so as to avoid a situation
>> > where Special Tribunals or Courts were created to address specific
>> > instances of gross violations; ie the Sierra Leone, Ex-Yugoslavia and
>> > Rwanda Special Courts but the jurisprudence of all tribunals are the
>> > same.
>> >
>> > At a judicial level, it is the landmark 2001 judgement of the
>> > Judicial Committee of the House of Lords of the United Kingdom in the
>> > case Ex Parte PINOCHET that laid down the juridicial and intellectual
>> > basis for the ICC. This case is regarded as one of the greatest in the
>> > entire history of Common Law Jurisprudence ( please check my analysis
>> > of the case in an earlier posting).
>> >
>> > I would advise people like Edward Mulindwa and Bobby Musoke to read
>> > this background to the genesis and development of the ICC, or
>> > otherwise stop participating in a debate where they have very scanty
>> > legal or political knowledge.
>> >
>> > George Okello
>> >
>> > George Okello
>> >
>> >
>> > On 10/13/13, Paul Mugerwa <[email protected]> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > Angela Mudukuti,
>> > >
>> > > You are so sweet baby-girl. African leadership needs rational
>> individuals
>> > > like you, if peace and justice were to become a reality.
>> > >
>> > > Paul Mugerwa
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > ------------------------------
>> > > On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 1:39 PM PDT Ocen Nekyon wrote:
>> > >
>> > >Where was the AU when the ICC went after Charles Taylor? Ocen
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > From: john kwitonda Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2013 16:23 To:
>> > > [email protected] Reply To:
>> > > [email protected] Subject: Re: {UAH} Re:Africans
>> urge
>> > ICC
>> > > not to try heads of state lets forget these silly african dictators
>> who
>> > > kill their own and now fear to account for their sins. Kgame has
>> chased
>> > > genocide participants all over the globe
>> > > and actually has been helped by the west.he didnt mind where they
>> were
>> > > tried and many of them in Belgium ,.now he wants to convice the
>> world,the
>> > > west was victimising those Rwandese? these dictators should give us
a
>> > break
>> > > and face the law
>> > >On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 2:00 PM, nsubuga simeo <
>> > [email protected] >
>> > > wrote:
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>>
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/africa/2013/10/africans-urge-icc-not-try-heads
-state-201310125566632803.html
>> > >
>> > > "If you look at most of the cases before the ICC, they are what we
>> > call
>> > > self-referrals," she said. "Autonomous, independent African
>> governments
>> > > have gone to the ICC and said, 'Can you intervene? We cannot handle
>> this
>> > > matter.' So it's more Africans making use of the court, not the ICC
>> > > targeting Africa." says Angela Mudukuti, a lawyer at the Southern
>> Africa
>> > > Litigation Centre in Johannesburg. ...
>> > >Laywer Angela Mudukuti has a point here, most these cases before
>> > >ICC went there on the request of the African Countries, incase of
Kenya
>> > > under the 2008 Nairobi Peace Accord which was agreed between PNU and
>> > CORD
>> > > after election violence mediated by former UN SG Kofi Annan it was
>> > agreed
>> > > that a local tribunal will be formed to try all the perpetrators of
>> the
>> > > violence/those who bear the greatest responsibility for the killings
>> of
>> > > 1333 Kenyans and failure to form the local tribunal the matter will
be
>> > > referred to the ICC to handle. It was the failure of the Coalition
>> > > government of Kibaki and Raila which forced Kofi Annan to handle over
>> > the
>> > > matter to ICC Prosecutor, what's commonly know as the Waki Envelope.
>> > >In case of Uganda, we called upon ICC to come in to investigate and
try
>> > the
>> > > senior leaders of LRA because of the atrocities they committed
against
>> > the
>> > > people of Northern Uganda for the last 20 years (1986-2006). the same
>> > > scenario applies to cases from DRC, Ivory Coast and others. So let us
>> > > accept that as Africans we
>> > >have failed to handle political impunity within our jurisdictions so
we
>> > > need the ICC to help us solve these cases. Africa Countries need ICC
>> > more
>> > > than ICC needs them. Look at Darfur Region where Bashir and his top
>> > > generals are being charged of crimes against humanity , war crimes
and
>> > > genocide (you can imagine a crime of genocide), one tribe was almost
>> > wiped
>> > > out by the Janjaweed militia men being supported, financed and armed
>> > with
>> > > all types of weapons by the Bashir government in Khartoum. So where
do
>> > > take such a matter for the Darfurians who are in IDPS for the last 10
>> > > years to have justice? You take it to Addis Ababa under the AU
>> > > Summit????.
>> > >To me as a human rights scholar, the issue that so and so is a serving
>> > head
>> > > of state and for that matter he/she should not stand trial at ICC,
its
>> > > immaterial. These international crimes are committed in individual
>> > > capacity not as a head of state. Like in Kenyan case these guys by
the
>> > > time(2007/2008)
>> > >where suspected for having organized, mobilized. coordinated and
>> financed
>> > > the killings of 1333 victims where not President or Deputy President
>> and
>> > > even during the elections, they were advised to first sort out their
>> > > matter before ICC and after being cleared, then to come and stand for
>> > > elections but they refused. Having political support/popularity
should
>> > not
>> > > be used as tool to escape justice we need to fight this problem
called
>> > > political impunity .
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>>
>>
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