It seems that we'd have to use invite links on the Flink website for people to join our Slack (1) These links can be configured to have no time-expiration, but they will expire after 100 guests have joined. I guess we'd have to use a URL shortener (https://s.apache.org) that we update once the invite link expires. It's not a nice solution, but it'll work.
(1) https://the-asf.slack.com/archives/CBX4TSBQ8/p1652125017094159 On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:59 PM Robert Metzger <metrob...@gmail.com> wrote: > Thanks a lot for your answer. The onboarding experience to the ASF Slack > is indeed not ideal: > https://apisix.apache.org/docs/general/join#join-the-slack-channel > I'll see if we can improve it > > On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:38 PM Martijn Visser <martijnvis...@apache.org> > wrote: > >> As far as I recall you can't sign up for the ASF instance of Slack, you >> can >> only get there if you're a committer or if you're invited by a committer. >> >> On Mon, 9 May 2022 at 15:15, Robert Metzger <metrob...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> > Sorry for joining this discussion late, and thanks for the summary >> Xintong! >> > >> > Why are we considering a separate slack instance instead of using the >> ASF >> > Slack instance? >> > The ASF instance is paid, so all messages are retained forever, and >> quite >> > a few people are already on that Slack instance. >> > There is already a #flink channel on that Slack instance, that we could >> > leave as passive as it is right now, or put some more effort into it, >> on a >> > voluntary basis. >> > We could add another #flink-dev channel to that Slack for developer >> > discussions, and a private flink-committer and flink-pmc chat. >> > >> > If we are going that path, we should rework the "Community" and "Getting >> > Help" pages and explain that the mailing lists are the "ground truth >> tools" >> > in Flink, and Slack is only there to facilitate faster communication, >> but >> > it is optional / voluntary (e.g. a committers won't respond to DMs) >> > >> > All public #flink-* channels should be archived and google-indexable. >> > I've asked Jarek from Airflow who's maintaining >> > http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org. >> > If we can't use slack-archives.org, it would be nice to find some >> > volunteers in the Flink community to hack a simple indexing tool. >> > The indexing part is very important for me, because of some bad >> > experiences with the Kubernetes experience, where most of the advanced >> > stuff is hidden in their Slack, and it took me a few weeks to find that >> > goldmine of information. >> > >> > Overall, I see this as an experiment worth doing, but I would suggest >> > revisiting it in 6 to 12 months: We should check if really all important >> > decisions are mirrored to the right mailing lists, and that we get the >> > benefits we hoped for (more adoption, better experience for users and >> > developers), and that we can handle the concerns (DMs to developers, >> > indexing). >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 12:22 PM Xintong Song <tonysong...@gmail.com> >> > wrote: >> > >> >> Thanks all for the valuable feedback. >> >> >> >> It seems most people are overall positive about using Slack for dev >> >> discussions, as long as they are properly reflected back to the MLs. >> >> - We definitely need a code of conduct that clearly specifies what >> people >> >> should / should not do. >> >> - Contributors pinging well-known reviewers /committers, I think that >> also >> >> happens now on JIRA / Github. Personally, I'd understand a no-reply as >> a >> >> "soft no". We may consider to also put that in the cod of conduct. >> >> >> >> Concerning using Slack for user QAs, it seem the major concern is >> that, we >> >> may end up repeatedly answering the same questions from different >> users, >> >> due to lack of capacity for archiving and searching historical >> >> conversations. TBH, I don't have a good solution for the archivability >> and >> >> searchability. I investigated some tools like Zapier [1], but none of >> them >> >> seems suitable for us. However, I'd like to share 2 arguments. >> >> - The purpose of Slack is to make the communication more efficient? By >> >> *efficient*, I mean saving time for both question askers and helpers >> with >> >> instance messages, file transmissions, even voice / video calls, etc. >> >> (Especially for cases where back and forth is needed, as David >> mentioned.) >> >> It does not mean questions that do not get enough attentions on MLs are >> >> now >> >> guaranteed to be answered immediately. We can probably put that into >> the >> >> code of conduct, and kindly guide users to first search and initiate >> >> questions on MLs. >> >> - I'd also like to share some experience from the Flink China >> community. >> >> We >> >> have 3 DingTalk groups with totally 25k members (might be less, I >> didn't >> >> do >> >> deduplication), posting hundreds of messages daily. What I'm really >> >> excited >> >> about is that, there are way more interactions between users & users >> than >> >> between users & developers. Users are helping each other, sharing >> >> experiences, sending screenshots / log files / documentations and >> solving >> >> problems together. We the developers seldom get pinged, if not >> proactively >> >> joined the conversations. The DingTalk groups are way more active >> compared >> >> to the user-zh@ ML, which I'd attribute to the improvement of >> interaction >> >> experiences. Admittedly, there are questions being repeatedly asked & >> >> answered, but TBH I don't think that compares to the benefit of a >> >> self-driven user community. I'd really love to see if we can bring such >> >> success to the global English-speaking community. >> >> >> >> Concerning StackOverFlow, it definitely worth more attention from the >> >> community. Thanks for the suggestion / reminder, Piotr & David. I think >> >> Slack and StackOverFlow are probably not mutual exclusive. >> >> >> >> Thank you~ >> >> >> >> Xintong Song >> >> >> >> >> >> [1] https://zapier.com/ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 9:50 AM Jingsong Li <jingsongl...@gmail.com> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> > Most of the open source communities I know have set up their slack >> >> > channels, such as Apache Iceberg [1], Apache Druid [2], etc. >> >> > So I think slack can be worth trying. >> >> > >> >> > David is right, there are some cases that need to communicate back >> and >> >> > forth, slack communication will be more effective. >> >> > >> >> > But back to the question, ultimately it's about whether there are >> >> > enough core developers willing to invest time in the slack, to >> >> > discuss, to answer questions, to communicate. >> >> > And whether there will be enough time to reply to the mailing list >> and >> >> > stackoverflow after we put in the slack (which we need to do). >> >> > >> >> > [1] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack >> >> > [2] https://druid.apache.org/community/ >> >> > >> >> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 10:06 PM David Anderson <dander...@apache.org >> > >> >> > wrote: >> >> > > >> >> > > I have mixed feelings about this. >> >> > > >> >> > > I have been rather visible on stack overflow, and as a result I >> get a >> >> > lot of DMs asking for help. I enjoy helping, but want to do it on a >> >> > platform where the responses can be searched and shared. >> >> > > >> >> > > It is currently the case that good questions on stack overflow >> >> > frequently go unanswered because no one with the necessary expertise >> >> takes >> >> > the time to respond. If the Flink community has the collective energy >> >> to do >> >> > more user outreach, more involvement on stack overflow would be a >> good >> >> > place to start. Adding slack as another way for users to request help >> >> from >> >> > those who are already actively providing support on the existing >> >> > communication channels might just lead to burnout. >> >> > > >> >> > > On the other hand, there are rather rare, but very interesting >> cases >> >> > where considerable back and forth is needed to figure out what's >> going >> >> on. >> >> > This can happen, for example, when the requirements are unusual, or >> >> when a >> >> > difficult to diagnose bug is involved. In these circumstances, >> something >> >> > like slack is much better suited than email or stack overflow. >> >> > > >> >> > > David >> >> > > >> >> > > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:04 PM Becket Qin <becket....@gmail.com> >> >> wrote: >> >> > >> >> >> > >> Thanks for the proposal, Xintong. >> >> > >> >> >> > >> While I share the same concerns as those mentioned in the previous >> >> > discussion thread, admittedly there are benefits of having a slack >> >> channel >> >> > as a supplementary way to discuss Flink. The fact that this topic is >> >> raised >> >> > once a while indicates lasting interests. >> >> > >> >> >> > >> Personally I am open to having such a slack channel. Although it >> has >> >> > drawbacks, it serves a different purpose. I'd imagine that for people >> >> who >> >> > prefer instant messaging, in absence of the slack channel, a lot of >> >> > discussions might just take place offline today, which leaves no >> public >> >> > record at all. >> >> > >> >> >> > >> One step further, if the channel is maintained by the Flink PMC, >> some >> >> > kind of code of conduct might be necessary. I think the suggestions >> of >> >> > ad-hoc conversations, reflecting back to the emails are good starting >> >> > points. I am +1 to give it a try and see how it goes. In the worst >> >> case, we >> >> > can just stop doing this and come back to where we are right now. >> >> > >> >> >> > >> Thanks, >> >> > >> >> >> > >> Jiangjie (Becket) Qin >> >> > >> >> >> > >> On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 8:55 PM Martijn Visser < >> mart...@ververica.com >> >> > >> >> > wrote: >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> Hi everyone, >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> While I see Slack having a major downside (the results are not >> >> indexed >> >> > by external search engines, you can't link directly to Slack content >> >> unless >> >> > you've signed up), I do think that the open source space has >> progressed >> >> and >> >> > that Slack is considered as something that's invaluable to users. >> There >> >> are >> >> > other Apache programs that also run it, like Apache Airflow [1]. I >> also >> >> see >> >> > it as a potential option to create a more active community. >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> A concern I can see is that users will start DMing well-known >> >> > reviewers/committers to get a review or a PR merged. That can cause a >> >> lot >> >> > of noise. I can go +1 for Slack, but then we need to establish a set >> of >> >> > community rules. >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> Best regards, >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> Martijn >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> [1] https://airflow.apache.org/community/ >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 13:59, Piotr Nowojski < >> pnowoj...@apache.org> >> >> > wrote: >> >> > >>>> >> >> > >>>> Hi Xintong, >> >> > >>>> >> >> > >>>> I'm not sure if slack is the right tool for the job. IMO it >> works >> >> > great as >> >> > >>>> an adhoc tool for discussion between developers, but it's not >> >> > searchable >> >> > >>>> and it's not persistent. Between devs, it works fine, as long as >> >> the >> >> > result >> >> > >>>> of the ad hoc discussions is backported to JIRA/mailing >> list/design >> >> > doc. >> >> > >>>> For users, that simply would be extremely difficult to achieve. >> In >> >> the >> >> > >>>> result, I would be afraid we are answering the same questions >> over, >> >> > and >> >> > >>>> over and over again, without even a way to provide a link to the >> >> > previous >> >> > >>>> thread, because nobody can search for it . >> >> > >>>> >> >> > >>>> I'm +1 for having an open and shared slack space/channel for the >> >> > >>>> contributors, but I think I would be -1 for such channels for >> the >> >> > users. >> >> > >>>> >> >> > >>>> For users, I would prefer to focus more on, for example, >> >> > stackoverflow. >> >> > >>>> With upvoting, clever sorting of the answers (not the >> oldest/newest >> >> > at top) >> >> > >>>> it's easily searchable - those features make it fit our use case >> >> much >> >> > >>>> better IMO. >> >> > >>>> >> >> > >>>> Best, >> >> > >>>> Piotrek >> >> > >>>> >> >> > >>>> >> >> > >>>> >> >> > >>>> pt., 6 maj 2022 o 11:08 Xintong Song <tonysong...@gmail.com> >> >> > napisał(a): >> >> > >>>> >> >> > >>>> > Thank you~ >> >> > >>>> > >> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song >> >> > >>>> > >> >> > >>>> > >> >> > >>>> > >> >> > >>>> > ---------- Forwarded message --------- >> >> > >>>> > From: Xintong Song <tonysong...@gmail.com> >> >> > >>>> > Date: Fri, May 6, 2022 at 5:07 PM >> >> > >>>> > Subject: Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack >> workspace >> >> > >>>> > To: private <priv...@flink.apache.org> >> >> > >>>> > Cc: Chesnay Schepler <ches...@apache.org> >> >> > >>>> > >> >> > >>>> > >> >> > >>>> > Hi Chesnay, >> >> > >>>> > >> >> > >>>> > Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't find this is *repeatedly* >> >> > discussed on the >> >> > >>>> > ML. The only discussions I find are [1] & [2], which are 4 >> years >> >> > ago. On >> >> > >>>> > the other hand, I do find many users are asking questions >> about >> >> > whether >> >> > >>>> > Slack should be supported [2][3][4]. Besides, I also find a >> >> recent >> >> > >>>> > discussion thread from ComDev [5], where alternative >> >> communication >> >> > channels >> >> > >>>> > are being discussed. It seems to me ASF is quite open to >> having >> >> such >> >> > >>>> > additional channels and they have been worked well for many >> >> projects >> >> > >>>> > already. >> >> > >>>> > >> >> > >>>> > I see two reasons for brining this discussion again: >> >> > >>>> > 1. There are indeed many things that have change during the >> past >> >> 4 >> >> > years. >> >> > >>>> > We have more contributors, including committers and PMC >> members, >> >> > and even >> >> > >>>> > more users from various organizations and timezones. That also >> >> > means more >> >> > >>>> > discussions and Q&As are happening. >> >> > >>>> > 2. The proposal here is different from the previous >> discussion. >> >> > Instead of >> >> > >>>> > maintaining a channel for Flink in the ASF workspace, here we >> are >> >> > proposing >> >> > >>>> > to create a dedicated Apache Flink slack workspace. And >> instead >> >> of >> >> > *moving* >> >> > >>>> > the discussion to Slack, we are proposing to add a Slack >> >> Workspace >> >> > as an >> >> > >>>> > addition to the ML. >> >> > >>>> > >> >> > >>>> > Below is your opinions that I found from your previous -1 [1]. >> >> > IIUR, these >> >> > >>>> > are all about the using ASF Slack Workspace. If I overlooked >> >> > anything, >> >> > >>>> > please let me know. >> >> > >>>> > >> >> > >>>> > > 1. According to INFRA-14292 < >> >> > >>>> > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-14292> the ASF >> >> Slack >> >> > isn't >> >> > >>>> > > run by the ASF. This alone puts this service into rather >> >> > questionable >> >> > >>>> > > territory as it /looks/ like an official ASF service. If >> anyone >> >> > can >> >> > >>>> > provide >> >> > >>>> > > information to the contrary, please do so. >> >> > >>>> > >> >> > >>>> > 2. We already discuss things on the mailing lists, JIRA and >> >> GitHub. >> >> > All of >> >> > >>>> > > these are available to the public, whereas the slack channel >> >> > requires an >> >> > >>>> > > @apache mail address, i.e. you have to be a committer. This >> >> > minimizes the >> >> > >>>> > > target audience rather significantly. I would much rather >> >> prefer >> >> > >>>> > something >> >> > >>>> > > that is also available to contributors. >> >> > >>>> > >> >> > >>>> > >> >> > >>>> > I do agree this should be decided by the whole community. I'll >> >> > forward this >> >> > >>>> > to dev@ and user@ ML. >> >> > >>>> > >> >> > >>>> > Thank you~ >> >> > >>>> > >> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song >> >> > >>>> > >> >> > >>>> > >> >> > >>>> > [1] >> >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/gxwv49ssq82g06dbhy339x6rdxtlcv3d >> >> > >>>> > [2] >> >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/kcym1sozkrtwxw1fjbnwk1nqrrlzolcc >> >> > >>>> > [3] >> >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/7rmd3ov6sv3wwhflp97n4czz25hvmqm6 >> >> > >>>> > [4] >> >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/n5y1kzv50bkkbl3ys494dglyxl45bmts >> >> > >>>> > [5] >> >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/fzwd3lj0x53hkq3od5ot0y719dn3kj1j >> >> > >>>> > >> >> > >>>> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:05 PM Chesnay Schepler < >> >> ches...@apache.org >> >> > > >> >> > >>>> > wrote: >> >> > >>>> > >> >> > >>>> > > This has been repeatedly discussed on the ML over the years >> and >> >> > was >> >> > >>>> > > rejected every time. >> >> > >>>> > > >> >> > >>>> > > I don't see that anything has changed that would invalidate >> the >> >> > >>>> > previously >> >> > >>>> > > raised arguments against it, so I'm still -1 on it. >> >> > >>>> > > >> >> > >>>> > > This is also not something the PMC should decide anyway, but >> >> the >> >> > project >> >> > >>>> > > as a whole. >> >> > >>>> > > >> >> > >>>> > > On 06/05/2022 06:48, Jark Wu wrote: >> >> > >>>> > > >> >> > >>>> > > Thank Xintong, for starting this exciting topic. >> >> > >>>> > > >> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack would be an essential addition to the mailing >> >> list. >> >> > >>>> > > I have talked with some Flink users, and they are surprised >> >> > >>>> > > Flink doesn't have Slack yet, and they would love to use >> Slack. >> >> > >>>> > > We can also see a trend that new open-source communities >> >> > >>>> > > are using Slack as the community base camp. >> >> > >>>> > > >> >> > >>>> > > Slack is also helpful for brainstorming and asking people >> for >> >> > opinions >> >> > >>>> > and >> >> > >>>> > > use cases. >> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack is not only another place for Q&A but also a >> >> > connection to >> >> > >>>> > > the Flink users. >> >> > >>>> > > We can create more channels to make the community have more >> >> social >> >> > >>>> > > attributes, for example, >> >> > >>>> > > - Share ideas, projects, integrations, articles, and >> >> > presentations >> >> > >>>> > > related to Flink in the #shows channel >> >> > >>>> > > - Flink releases, events in the #news channel >> >> > >>>> > > >> >> > >>>> > > Thus, I'm +1 to create an Apache Flink slack, and I can help >> >> set >> >> > up the >> >> > >>>> > > Flink slack and maintain it. >> >> > >>>> > > >> >> > >>>> > > Best, >> >> > >>>> > > Jark >> >> > >>>> > > >> >> > >>>> > > On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 10:38, Xintong Song < >> >> tonysong...@gmail.com> >> >> > wrote: >> >> > >>>> > > >> >> > >>>> > >> Hi all, >> >> > >>>> > >> >> >> > >>>> > >> I’d like to start a discussion on creating an Apache Flink >> >> slack >> >> > >>>> > >> workspace. >> >> > >>>> > >> >> >> > >>>> > >> ## Motivation >> >> > >>>> > >> Today many organizations choose to do real time >> communication >> >> > through >> >> > >>>> > >> slack. IMHO, we, Flink, as a technique for real time >> >> computing, >> >> > should >> >> > >>>> > >> embrace the more real time way for communication, >> especially >> >> for >> >> > ad-hoc >> >> > >>>> > >> questions and interactions. With more and more contributors >> >> from >> >> > >>>> > different >> >> > >>>> > >> organizations joining this community, it would be good to >> >> > provide a >> >> > >>>> > common >> >> > >>>> > >> channel for such real time communications. Therefore, I'd >> >> > propose to >> >> > >>>> > create >> >> > >>>> > >> an Apache Flink slack workspace that is maintained by the >> >> Flink >> >> > PMC. >> >> > >>>> > >> >> >> > >>>> > >> ## Benefits >> >> > >>>> > >> - Easier to reach out to people. Messages are less likely >> >> > overlooked. >> >> > >>>> > >> - Realtime messages, voice / video calls, file >> transmissions >> >> > that help >> >> > >>>> > >> improve the communication efficiency. >> >> > >>>> > >> - Finer-grained channels (e.g., flink-ml, flink-statefun, >> >> > temporal >> >> > >>>> > >> discussion channels for specific topics, etc.). >> >> > >>>> > >> >> >> > >>>> > >> ## Relationship with the mailing lists >> >> > >>>> > >> I think the slack workspace should be an extension rather >> >> than a >> >> > >>>> > >> replacement of the mailing lists. Community members should >> >> still >> >> > be >> >> > >>>> > able to >> >> > >>>> > >> follow what’s going on from solely the mailing lists. That >> >> means: >> >> > >>>> > >> a) All the decisions, conclusions and important opinions >> >> should >> >> > be >> >> > >>>> > >> reflected back to the mailing lists. After all, according >> to >> >> the >> >> > Apache >> >> > >>>> > >> Way, if it didn’t happen on a mailing list, it didn’t >> happen. >> >> > >>>> > >> b) We should encourage people to only ask ad hoc questions >> on >> >> > slack. >> >> > >>>> > Long >> >> > >>>> > >> conversations (or ad hoc questions that grow long) should >> be >> >> > posted on >> >> > >>>> > the >> >> > >>>> > >> mailing lists, and can be referenced on slack for a real >> time >> >> > >>>> > discussion. >> >> > >>>> > >> >> >> > >>>> > >> ## Responsiveness >> >> > >>>> > >> Using slack does not mean people being pinged need to be >> >> > responsive. We >> >> > >>>> > >> are in an open-sourced community where all contributors are >> >> > volunteers. >> >> > >>>> > >> Slack should be used to make communication easier only when >> >> all >> >> > the >> >> > >>>> > peers >> >> > >>>> > >> are convenient. We should make it clear that people should >> not >> >> > expect >> >> > >>>> > >> others to always be responsive. >> >> > >>>> > >> >> >> > >>>> > >> ## Archivability and searchability >> >> > >>>> > >> One of the shortcomings that Slack is often mentioned with >> is >> >> > its lack >> >> > >>>> > of >> >> > >>>> > >> capability to archive conversations and to search among >> them. >> >> > There are >> >> > >>>> > >> various tools that help address this problem[1]. As a first >> >> > step, we may >> >> > >>>> > >> start with simply relying on reflecting things back to the >> >> > mailing >> >> > >>>> > lists. >> >> > >>>> > >> IMHO, if everything important is properly reflected back to >> >> the >> >> > mailing >> >> > >>>> > >> lists, we don’t really need the archivability and >> >> searchability. >> >> > >>>> > >> >> >> > >>>> > >> ## Other communities >> >> > >>>> > >> AFAIK, there are many popular open-source projects (Apache >> >> > hosted or >> >> > >>>> > not) >> >> > >>>> > >> that have their own Slack workspace: AirFlow [2], IceBerg >> [3], >> >> > HBase [4] >> >> > >>>> > >> etc. >> >> > >>>> > >> >> >> > >>>> > >> To name the Slack workspace with Apache Flink, we would >> need >> >> an >> >> > official >> >> > >>>> > >> vote and approval from the PMC members. But before we get >> to >> >> > that, I’d >> >> > >>>> > like >> >> > >>>> > >> to hear more about what you think. >> >> > >>>> > >> >> >> > >>>> > >> Thank you~ >> >> > >>>> > >> >> >> > >>>> > >> Xintong Song >> >> > >>>> > >> >> >> > >>>> > >> >> >> > >>>> > >> [1] http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org >> >> > >>>> > >> [2] https://airflow.apache.org/community >> >> > >>>> > >> [3] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack >> >> > >>>> > >> [4] >> >> https://hbase.apache.org/book.html#trouble.resources.slack >> >> > >>>> > >> >> >> > >>>> > > >> >> > >>>> > > >> >> > >>>> > >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >
