If you haven't gotten it by now, I can't devote any more time to explaining it.
On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 8:53 AM, Deepak Shetty <[email protected]> wrote: >>The other posts by Etsy and Steve Shouders are really misleading for people > which are not familiar with APM > which posts are you referring to? > > > On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 2:56 AM, Shmuel Krakower <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Zippy, >> What is the point you are trying to set? >> I agree with some of the stuff you mention while some of it is incorrect. >> >> The other posts by Etsy and Steve Shouders are really misleading for people >> which are not familiar with APM and I wanted to post some feedback on that >> blog post by Steve for long time now, but haven't done so yet. >> >> My bottom line here is that it make no sense to compare RUM and Synthetic >> and trying to come up with numbers or any kind of a rule about the relation >> between them. The only true thing to say about the relation of them is that >> if you have synthetic monitoring trend that shows you an increase in >> response time, you will probably see the same trend in RUM and even this >> has exceptions(I.e. synthetic run from specific problematic network or >> monitoring specific problematic content). >> >> Do you have some new technology in mind to resolve the limits of load >> testing tools and bring the benefits from real browser profiling? Because >> as we use jmeter we try to understand what builds up the application and >> try to mimic that behavior as much as possible with our scripts.. nothing >> fancy about it. >> On Feb 7, 2013 6:17 AM, "David Luu" <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> > So based on the discussion, I take it the OP/Zippy has decided that >> > integrating Selenium with JMeter (e.g. calling Selenium from JMeter) or >> > running a Selenium test separately but in parallel/simultaneously as >> JMeter >> > to assess browser DOM/AJAX rendering & response time is not acceptable? >> > Because those 2 approaches will tackle the problem just recently being >> > discussed. You create the needed synthetic load while at same time be >> able >> > to more accurately gauge browser performance (w/o having to do it >> manually >> > by hand). >> > >> > Just curious to know why not? Too much work & lack of a team member with >> > proper expertise to devise the JMeter/Selenium solution? Granted it does >> > take some work to build, but there's never good/perfect free lunches, >> > make/customize it yourself "to personal taste" or pay $$$ for it. >> > >> > On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 7:41 PM, Deepak Shetty <[email protected]> wrote: >> > >> > > I notice you didnt actually say whats the difference between two >> browsers >> > > and one. >> > > >> > > In any case web test tools have always been in two categories >> > > Those that drive the http request/response (JMeter, Grinder,older >> > versions >> > > of load runner) and those that drive the browser (selenium, watir, qtp, >> > > newer versions of load runner). >> > > Do you seriously think that people who develop and/or use the first >> > > category are measuring wind speed with >> > > a wet finger or is it more likely you dont get what you need to do if >> you >> > > want to use one of these tools to still get "true" response times? >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 7:13 PM, Zippy Zeppoli <[email protected] >> > > >wrote: >> > > >> > > > It's the difference between measuring wind speed with an anemometer >> and >> > > > your wet finger in the air. >> > > > >> > > > On Wednesday, February 6, 2013, Deepak Shetty wrote: >> > > > >> > > > > >I think you may be missing the point. >> > > > > Heh - the feelings mutual >> > > > > >There is no DOM rendering happening...and it won't reflect the >> true >> > > > > response time >> > > > > If you need browser times , yes Jmeter cant help you directly. >> > > > > >> > > > > But browser render times are really irrelevant to a *load test*. >> Lets >> > > say >> > > > > using any tool you have loaded the server with some high load . Now >> > > Lets >> > > > > say you and I (assume the addition of two requests makes no >> > difference >> > > to >> > > > > the server). access this via a browser with similar conditions(same >> > > > > browser, network, cpu, memory etc). Is there any difference that >> you >> > > and >> > > > I >> > > > > will see? Do you really need two or many browsers to figure out how >> > > much >> > > > > time your DOM rendering is taking or will one browser suffice?(lets >> > > > ignore >> > > > > that you still arent getting "true" times - because browser times >> are >> > > > > dependent on what else the user is doing, what sort of network >> > > bandwidth >> > > > he >> > > > > has , what browser he is using, what are IE cache settings are and >> so >> > > > on). >> > > > > >> > > > > Pre - cloud , it was prohibitive to drive browsers to do load >> tests - >> > > now >> > > > > it is possible , but the amount of additional value that you get >> > over a >> > > > > http request/response load test and some browser analysis is >> minimal >> > to >> > > > > none. (Some types of scripts are easier to write with a browser >> > driven >> > > > tool >> > > > > though). >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 4:30 PM, Zippy Zeppoli < >> > [email protected] >> > > > <javascript:;> >> > > > > >wrote: >> > > > > >> > > > > > I think you may be missing the point. >> > > > > > Real load cannot be tested via HTTP interactions. >> > > > > > There is no DOM rendering happening. >> > > > > > I can make HTTP requests all day and it won't reflect the true >> > > response >> > > > > > time unless it's done through a browser. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Recording a script in Jmeter proxy is trivial. Simulating *real* >> > user >> > > > > load >> > > > > > is not it requires a browser and interactions with a web >> > application. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 6:51 PM, Deepak Shetty <[email protected] >> > >> > > > wrote: >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > >Actually that does matter it cannot do JavaScript. If a >> request >> > > > > requires >> > > > > > > >you need to be able to click a JavaScript button then the >> > request >> > > > will >> > > > > > > >never happen. >> > > > > > > The point is that what happens when the button is clicked? >> > Assuming >> > > > > its a >> > > > > > > server - ajax call then A HTTP call is made and some parameters >> > are >> > > > > > passed >> > > > > > > and some values are returned. Thats whats important for the >> load >> > > > test , >> > > > > > not >> > > > > > > the fact that javascript was executed. >> > > > > > > So when you record the script , you will be the person clicking >> > the >> > > > > > > button(you are recording your actions) , JMeter will record >> every >> > > > > > > interaction that makes a call to the server and will record >> this >> > > as a >> > > > > > > separate HTTP request and when you run the script the same >> > request >> > > > will >> > > > > > be >> > > > > > > made as if someone clicked the button! >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > You dont need to use the recorder either , you can modify the >> > > script >> > > > > > > yourself. >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > If the javascript didnt actually make any server side call - >> then >> > > it >> > > > > > doesnt >> > > > > > > matter because you dont want to load test this anyway. >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Have you actually tried this? It sounds as if you have a >> problem >> > > > > > recording >> > > > > > > your script and you probably have concluded that JMeter doesnt >> do >> > > > > > > javascript (true) and hence cant test websites that do >> > > > javascript/ajax >> > > > > > > (false) >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >Real browser is needed >> > > > > > > Not for a good deal of use cases - as many of the people on >> this >> > > > > mailing >> > > > > > > list can attest too. >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 6:44 PM, Zippy Zeppoli < >> > > > [email protected] >> > > > > > > >wrote: >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Deepak, >> > > > > > > > Actually that does matter it cannot do JavaScript. If a >> request >> > > > > > requires >> > > > > > > > you need to be able to click a JavaScript button then the >> > request >> > > > > will >> > > > > > > > never happen. No request will ever be made. Also testing >> true >> > > web >> > > > > > > > performance requires rendering the DOM, not just initiating >> > HTTP >> > > > > > requests >> > > > > > > > and recording the response time, rps, etc. >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Real browser is needed, with JavaScript, and Jmeter doesn't >> > > > integrate >> > > > > > > well >> > > > > > > > with this, it isn't designed for this, which is >> understandable. >> > > The >> > > > > > > problem >> > > > > > > > is there is a gap between real browser testing (owned by >> third >> > > > party >> > > > > > > > companies) and open source tools (Jmeter). There's nothing in >> > > > between >> > > > > > for >> > > > > > > > real-browser based performance testing. I could go into why, >> > but >> > > > its >> > > > > > off >> > > > > > > > topic of this list, and I'd rather spare everyone the gas. >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Point being, Jmeter cannot solve my problem, without some >> > serious >> > > > > > > > customization. >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 6:33 PM, Deepak Shetty < >> > [email protected] >> > > > >> > > > > > wrote: >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Hi >> > > > > > > > > You are getting too caught up in the JMeter doesnt do >> > > javascript >> > > > > > thing. >> > > > > > > > In >> > > > > > > > > most cases it doesnt matter. >> > > > > > > > > You have a webserver that is receiving HTTP requests - >> > whether >> > > > > those >> > > > > > > > > requests are generated via the user clicking a link or via >> > AJAX >> > > > or >> > > > > > via >> > > > > > > > > flash is hardly relevant to the webserver. It sees HTTP >> > > requests >> > > > > and >> > > > > > > > sends >> > > > > > > > > HTTP responses. >> > > > > > > > > JMeter deals with HTTP request and responses. As long as >> you >> > > can >> > > > > make >> > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > > same request that your javascript is making (which you can >> > see >> > > > via >> > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > > record >> > > > >> > > >> > >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected] For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
