ah ok - thanks
On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 3:04 PM, Shmuel Krakower <[email protected]> wrote: > I am referring to the one Zippy copy and paste into here: > > www.stevesouders.com/blog/2012/11/14/comparing-rum-synthetic-page-load-times/ > > And not sure what was the intention of the person who started this thread > but he surely got our attention :) > > Shmuel Krakower. > www.Beatsoo.org - re-use your jmeter scripts for application performance > monitoring from worldwide locations for free. > > > On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 9:11 PM, Zippy Zeppoli <[email protected] > >wrote: > > > If you haven't gotten it by now, I can't devote any more time to > > explaining it. > > > > On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 8:53 AM, Deepak Shetty <[email protected]> wrote: > > >>The other posts by Etsy and Steve Shouders are really misleading for > > people > > > which are not familiar with APM > > > which posts are you referring to? > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 2:56 AM, Shmuel Krakower <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > >> Zippy, > > >> What is the point you are trying to set? > > >> I agree with some of the stuff you mention while some of it is > > incorrect. > > >> > > >> The other posts by Etsy and Steve Shouders are really misleading for > > people > > >> which are not familiar with APM and I wanted to post some feedback on > > that > > >> blog post by Steve for long time now, but haven't done so yet. > > >> > > >> My bottom line here is that it make no sense to compare RUM and > > Synthetic > > >> and trying to come up with numbers or any kind of a rule about the > > relation > > >> between them. The only true thing to say about the relation of them is > > that > > >> if you have synthetic monitoring trend that shows you an increase in > > >> response time, you will probably see the same trend in RUM and even > this > > >> has exceptions(I.e. synthetic run from specific problematic network or > > >> monitoring specific problematic content). > > >> > > >> Do you have some new technology in mind to resolve the limits of load > > >> testing tools and bring the benefits from real browser profiling? > > Because > > >> as we use jmeter we try to understand what builds up the application > and > > >> try to mimic that behavior as much as possible with our scripts.. > > nothing > > >> fancy about it. > > >> On Feb 7, 2013 6:17 AM, "David Luu" <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> > > >> > So based on the discussion, I take it the OP/Zippy has decided that > > >> > integrating Selenium with JMeter (e.g. calling Selenium from JMeter) > > or > > >> > running a Selenium test separately but in parallel/simultaneously as > > >> JMeter > > >> > to assess browser DOM/AJAX rendering & response time is not > > acceptable? > > >> > Because those 2 approaches will tackle the problem just recently > being > > >> > discussed. You create the needed synthetic load while at same time > be > > >> able > > >> > to more accurately gauge browser performance (w/o having to do it > > >> manually > > >> > by hand). > > >> > > > >> > Just curious to know why not? Too much work & lack of a team member > > with > > >> > proper expertise to devise the JMeter/Selenium solution? Granted it > > does > > >> > take some work to build, but there's never good/perfect free > lunches, > > >> > make/customize it yourself "to personal taste" or pay $$$ for it. > > >> > > > >> > On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 7:41 PM, Deepak Shetty <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > >> > > > >> > > I notice you didnt actually say whats the difference between two > > >> browsers > > >> > > and one. > > >> > > > > >> > > In any case web test tools have always been in two categories > > >> > > Those that drive the http request/response (JMeter, Grinder,older > > >> > versions > > >> > > of load runner) and those that drive the browser (selenium, watir, > > qtp, > > >> > > newer versions of load runner). > > >> > > Do you seriously think that people who develop and/or use the > first > > >> > > category are measuring wind speed with > > >> > > a wet finger or is it more likely you dont get what you need to do > > if > > >> you > > >> > > want to use one of these tools to still get "true" response times? > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 7:13 PM, Zippy Zeppoli < > > [email protected] > > >> > > >wrote: > > >> > > > > >> > > > It's the difference between measuring wind speed with an > > anemometer > > >> and > > >> > > > your wet finger in the air. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > On Wednesday, February 6, 2013, Deepak Shetty wrote: > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >I think you may be missing the point. > > >> > > > > Heh - the feelings mutual > > >> > > > > >There is no DOM rendering happening...and it won't reflect > the > > >> true > > >> > > > > response time > > >> > > > > If you need browser times , yes Jmeter cant help you directly. > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > But browser render times are really irrelevant to a *load > test*. > > >> Lets > > >> > > say > > >> > > > > using any tool you have loaded the server with some high load > . > > Now > > >> > > Lets > > >> > > > > say you and I (assume the addition of two requests makes no > > >> > difference > > >> > > to > > >> > > > > the server). access this via a browser with similar > > conditions(same > > >> > > > > browser, network, cpu, memory etc). Is there any difference > that > > >> you > > >> > > and > > >> > > > I > > >> > > > > will see? Do you really need two or many browsers to figure > out > > how > > >> > > much > > >> > > > > time your DOM rendering is taking or will one browser > > suffice?(lets > > >> > > > ignore > > >> > > > > that you still arent getting "true" times - because browser > > times > > >> are > > >> > > > > dependent on what else the user is doing, what sort of network > > >> > > bandwidth > > >> > > > he > > >> > > > > has , what browser he is using, what are IE cache settings are > > and > > >> so > > >> > > > on). > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > Pre - cloud , it was prohibitive to drive browsers to do load > > >> tests - > > >> > > now > > >> > > > > it is possible , but the amount of additional value that you > get > > >> > over a > > >> > > > > http request/response load test and some browser analysis is > > >> minimal > > >> > to > > >> > > > > none. (Some types of scripts are easier to write with a > browser > > >> > driven > > >> > > > tool > > >> > > > > though). > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 4:30 PM, Zippy Zeppoli < > > >> > [email protected] > > >> > > > <javascript:;> > > >> > > > > >wrote: > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > I think you may be missing the point. > > >> > > > > > Real load cannot be tested via HTTP interactions. > > >> > > > > > There is no DOM rendering happening. > > >> > > > > > I can make HTTP requests all day and it won't reflect the > true > > >> > > response > > >> > > > > > time unless it's done through a browser. > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > Recording a script in Jmeter proxy is trivial. Simulating > > *real* > > >> > user > > >> > > > > load > > >> > > > > > is not it requires a browser and interactions with a web > > >> > application. > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 6:51 PM, Deepak Shetty < > > [email protected] > > >> > > > >> > > > wrote: > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >Actually that does matter it cannot do JavaScript. If a > > >> request > > >> > > > > requires > > >> > > > > > > >you need to be able to click a JavaScript button then the > > >> > request > > >> > > > will > > >> > > > > > > >never happen. > > >> > > > > > > The point is that what happens when the button is clicked? > > >> > Assuming > > >> > > > > its a > > >> > > > > > > server - ajax call then A HTTP call is made and some > > parameters > > >> > are > > >> > > > > > passed > > >> > > > > > > and some values are returned. Thats whats important for > the > > >> load > > >> > > > test , > > >> > > > > > not > > >> > > > > > > the fact that javascript was executed. > > >> > > > > > > So when you record the script , you will be the person > > clicking > > >> > the > > >> > > > > > > button(you are recording your actions) , JMeter will > record > > >> every > > >> > > > > > > interaction that makes a call to the server and will > record > > >> this > > >> > > as a > > >> > > > > > > separate HTTP request and when you run the script the same > > >> > request > > >> > > > will > > >> > > > > > be > > >> > > > > > > made as if someone clicked the button! > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > You dont need to use the recorder either , you can modify > > the > > >> > > script > > >> > > > > > > yourself. > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > If the javascript didnt actually make any server side > call - > > >> then > > >> > > it > > >> > > > > > doesnt > > >> > > > > > > matter because you dont want to load test this anyway. > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Have you actually tried this? It sounds as if you have a > > >> problem > > >> > > > > > recording > > >> > > > > > > your script and you probably have concluded that JMeter > > doesnt > > >> do > > >> > > > > > > javascript (true) and hence cant test websites that do > > >> > > > javascript/ajax > > >> > > > > > > (false) > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >Real browser is needed > > >> > > > > > > Not for a good deal of use cases - as many of the people > on > > >> this > > >> > > > > mailing > > >> > > > > > > list can attest too. > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 6:44 PM, Zippy Zeppoli < > > >> > > > [email protected] > > >> > > > > > > >wrote: > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Deepak, > > >> > > > > > > > Actually that does matter it cannot do JavaScript. If a > > >> request > > >> > > > > > requires > > >> > > > > > > > you need to be able to click a JavaScript button then > the > > >> > request > > >> > > > > will > > >> > > > > > > > never happen. No request will ever be made. Also > testing > > >> true > > >> > > web > > >> > > > > > > > performance requires rendering the DOM, not just > > initiating > > >> > HTTP > > >> > > > > > requests > > >> > > > > > > > and recording the response time, rps, etc. > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Real browser is needed, with JavaScript, and Jmeter > > doesn't > > >> > > > integrate > > >> > > > > > > well > > >> > > > > > > > with this, it isn't designed for this, which is > > >> understandable. > > >> > > The > > >> > > > > > > problem > > >> > > > > > > > is there is a gap between real browser testing (owned by > > >> third > > >> > > > party > > >> > > > > > > > companies) and open source tools (Jmeter). There's > > nothing in > > >> > > > between > > >> > > > > > for > > >> > > > > > > > real-browser based performance testing. I could go into > > why, > > >> > but > > >> > > > its > > >> > > > > > off > > >> > > > > > > > topic of this list, and I'd rather spare everyone the > gas. > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Point being, Jmeter cannot solve my problem, without > some > > >> > serious > > >> > > > > > > > customization. > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 6:33 PM, Deepak Shetty < > > >> > [email protected] > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > wrote: > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Hi > > >> > > > > > > > > You are getting too caught up in the JMeter doesnt do > > >> > > javascript > > >> > > > > > thing. > > >> > > > > > > > In > > >> > > > > > > > > most cases it doesnt matter. > > >> > > > > > > > > You have a webserver that is receiving HTTP requests - > > >> > whether > > >> > > > > those > > >> > > > > > > > > requests are generated via the user clicking a link or > > via > > >> > AJAX > > >> > > > or > > >> > > > > > via > > >> > > > > > > > > flash is hardly relevant to the webserver. It sees > HTTP > > >> > > requests > > >> > > > > and > > >> > > > > > > > sends > > >> > > > > > > > > HTTP responses. > > >> > > > > > > > > JMeter deals with HTTP request and responses. As long > as > > >> you > > >> > > can > > >> > > > > make > > >> > > > > > > the > > >> > > > > > > > > same request that your javascript is making (which you > > can > > >> > see > > >> > > > via > > >> > > > > > the > > >> > > > > > > > > record > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected] > > For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected] > > > > >
