Hi David,
Thanks for the expalnation.
De : "David E Jones" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> Phil,
>
> Thanks for writing. I'm not sure I understood the idea you were trying to
> communicate, so let me re-phrase it back to you:
>
> It sounds like you're saying that OFBiz didn't fit your requirements well and
> the complexity and scope seems better suited to
businesses larger than yours, or maybe more accurately, businesses with more
complex and wider scoped software needs than what your
business has.
>
> Does that sound about like what you were trying to say?
>
> If so I can totally understand that, and I totally agree with you. OFBiz is
> really not meant to be a system used OOTB by small
businesses. We have tried to communicate this clearly with text front and
center and on the OFBiz home page
(http://ofbiz.apache.org) under the "Introduction: What is Apache OFBiz?"
heading.
>
> There is a good chance the text there doesn't clearly represent that. Do you
> have any ideas about how we could better communicate
this?
Maybe, to better explain, your second message (attached) can be added under the
"Introduction: What is Apache OFBiz?" heading ?
Jacques
>
> -David
>
>
> Philip Garrow wrote:
> > Hi David:
> >
> > I tried to post the following message to the list and it bounced saying that
> > it looked like spam to the list filters. I don't know what I am doing
> > wrong; I felt that someone should read this sentiment.
> >
> > Regards, Phil Garrow
> >
> >
> > RE: Help with Ofbiz
> >
> > Hi:
> >
> > I too was excited about Ofbiz when I found out about it. I was searching
> > for a web based solution on which to run my business and I thought I found
> > it. It turns out that what I found was unuseably complex, although
> > promising. I then sought a programmer to help me customize Ofbiz as needed.
> > I, like you, balked at a price tag of nearly $30,000.00 to do the work
> > needed. I then thought that I would put in the time needed to learn Ofbiz
> > to be able to program the back end of my site... and to allow me to earn
> > those high consulting fees. I completed a computer science degree ten years
> > ago and spent a year and a half updating my skills learning Object Oriented
> > Programming in Java in 2003. Even with this, I was unable to make any
> > progress trying to work through David Jones's tutorial. So I posted to the
> > Ofbiz list for help getting starting with Ofbiz and got no replies...
> > nothing... I spent a month reading about Ofbiz, struggling to get started,
> > and then decided that my time was really better spent running my business
> > rather than put any more time in to this marginally supported framework. I
> > sought and found a commercial solution and for less than a third of the cost
> > of customizing Ofbiz, and providing almost everything I needed. It is my
> > opinion that until Ofbiz can do what is needed to soften the steep start-up
> > curve it will remain just a set of back-end libraries for a small number of
> > programmers, not a useful tool for small businesses. Kind of like a phrase
> > book for those who study Sanskrit, not fulfilling the promise of making
> > open-source software accessible to the masses. Good luck with Ofbiz. If
> > you are interested in the solution that I found then check out PDG Commerce.
> > I don't make a nickel on that suggestion.
> >
> > Just my $0.02 Phil Garrow
> >
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: EPaulson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2007 5:20 AM
> >> To: [email protected]
> >> Subject: Help with Ofbiz
> >>
> >>
> >> I am new to Ofbiz as a user. A few months ago I was fortunate enough
> >> to have a friend install and configure Ofbiz for my business. I
> >> switched my entire
> >> operation over to the Ofbiz framework out of sheer optimism/excitement for
> >> the powerful potention it offers. I have spent countless hours over the
> >> past
> >> few years with toying with different OOTB eCommerce solutions...only to
> >> find
> >> that there was always some annoying limitation with each and every one of
> >> them. Ofbiz, I thought, was going to be the solution I had been looking
> >> for
> >> the past several years. Finally...I can have EXACTLY what I need to
> >> operate
> >> my business the way I envision. Now the dilemma....
> >>
> >> I am not sure if it's the version I am running OR if it's a
> >> configuration issue, but a healthy chunk of Ofbiz features do not
> >> function on my site. To just name one...content management. I cannot
> >> add alt tags, policy pages,etc.
> >>
> >> Now, my friend is too busy to work on my site regardless of an hourly
> >> fee.
> >>
> >> The seemingly few of dev. familiar with OFB are also too busy.
> >>
> >> Documentation/training videos are too advanced for me unfortunately.
> >> I am willing to put in the time to learn, but I fear that it would
> >> take years for me to get where I need to be in order to customize OFB
> >> for my business...AND
> >> I don't even know where to begin.
> >>
> >> It's frustrating to be dependant on others that have the necessary
> >> knowledge to help you, BUT they are too busy unless I can un-ass $30K
> >> on up to become
> >> a top-level project myself. Please understand, I have the utmost respect
> >> for anyone that has the knowledge/background necessary to be able to
> >> navigate through development/implemention of Ofb AND I completely
> >> understand
> >> that small business owners like myself cannot expect the same attention as
> >> companies with big budgets. It's unreasonable for me to expect the luxury
> >> of
> >> a tailor-made ERP solution without paying what it's worth.
> >>
> >> 1) Is there anyone that has the time AND is willing to spend one-two
> >> hours per week consulting me on Ofbiz via phone/email/livechat,etc.?
> >> (walk me through the process of setup/config. and customization from
> >> time to time.
> >>
> >> If YES or if you have some positive suggestions than please email me
> >> directly with rates/availability. I would like to delete this post
> >> soon, so please do not respond with a post.
> >>
> >> Thank you for taking the time to read this post.
> >> --
> >
> > No virus found in this outgoing message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.11.19/956 - Release Date: 8/16/2007
> > 9:48 AM
> >
> >
--- Begin Message ---
Phil,
In other words, OFBiz is more than what you were looking for. Enterprise class
solutions are very different in nature from small business oriented software.
It doesn't sound like you're looking for a Blue Martini or ATG type of thing,
even less an ERP-like solution such as SAP or Oracle Financials, or even
something like Great Plains or Navision. Sage Software is interesting because
they have different product lines that draw this line. It sounds like you're
looking for something more on a scale (perhaps not scope) of Sage Peachtree
rather than Save Accpac or MAS 90.
There is a HUGE difference in how these different types of software are
"installed" and used.
Just like it was for you it's not uncommon for people to have a bad experience
with enterprise class software when they first look at it. It is WAY more
complex than they want. Medium and larger sized businesses automate things that
small businesses often don't even consider. That's the nature of the business
side of things, and the software for different types of businesses has to match
the complexity of the businesses it targets.
It doesn't mean OFBiz is bad, it's just not what you want. And that's totally
fine. Don't worry, I've been discouraging small businesses from using OFBiz for
many years now and early on had long conversations with many of them.
It's not that OFBiz has no use in the small business world, but most small
businesses need something that is meant for businesses like theirs, something
that takes from a pool of many thousands of data elements and processes and
pulls out just the dozens or hundreds they need for their particular business.
I'm copying the user mailing list on this just as I did on my last reply, and
as you mentioned you were trying to do. A lot of people run into this problem.
Some respond by realizing their experience was bad because their expectations
were simply not realistic. They adjust their expectations and their
understanding in increases and future related experiences are better. Some
respond by complaining and attacking and their understanding gets even further
away from reality than it was before and future related experiences get worse
and worse.
-David
Philip Garrow wrote:
Hi David:
I hope more clearly stated:
The promise of OfBiz is its use for businesses of all sizes.
I understand that it is not an OOTB solution, and at the same time I hoped
that my skills in software development and network administration would
allow me to install and configure and configure OfBiz to have at least some
baseline functionality from which I could learn and study further, they
weren’t. OfBiz is large, complex and beyond my skills to begin working
with, and being a skilled computer tech, this means they are beyond all but
the most specifically trained developers.
Next, I sought developers familiar with OfBiz to develop the back-end for my
business. Their solutions were twice my budget, and once complete could
only be supported by the small count of developers familiar with OfBiz.
Finally, following your advice I posted a request for help to learn OfBiz to
the user list and received no replies, no support for learning OfBiz.
In the end it made better business sense for me to use a well supported OOTB
solution, which cost me half the amount to install and configure, even for
my very complex requirements.
In summation, in my experience there is no circumstance under which I could
recommend OfBiz as a useful tool for running a business or as a useful
course of study for anyone interested in software development for business.
Until the learning curve for OfBiz can be softened, the cost for commercial
development reduced, and the training for new developers better supported, I
feel that OfBiz is just a bunch of Java Macros for a very few software
geeks.
Despite my initial excitement for using and learning OfBiz, it has been a
disappointment for me. I hope I was clearer in this letter.
Regards, Phil Garrow
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
FIGHT BACK AGAINST SPAM!
Download Spam Inspector, the Award Winning Anti-Spam Filter
http://mail.giantcompany.com
-----Original Message-----
From: David E Jones [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 7:18 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Something I tried to post to the list...
Phil,
Thanks for writing. I'm not sure I understood the idea you were trying to
communicate, so let me re-phrase it back to you:
It sounds like you're saying that OFBiz didn't fit your requirements well
and the complexity and scope seems better suited to businesses larger than
yours, or maybe more accurately, businesses with more complex and wider
scoped software needs than what your business has.
Does that sound about like what you were trying to say?
If so I can totally understand that, and I totally agree with you. OFBiz
is really not meant to be a system used OOTB by small businesses. We have
tried to communicate this clearly with text front and center and on the
OFBiz home page (http://ofbiz.apache.org) under the "Introduction: What is
Apache OFBiz?" heading.
There is a good chance the text there doesn't clearly represent that. Do
you have any ideas about how we could better communicate this?
-David
Philip Garrow wrote:
Hi David:
I tried to post the following message to the list and it bounced saying
that
it looked like spam to the list filters. I don't know what I am doing
wrong; I felt that someone should read this sentiment.
Regards, Phil Garrow
RE: Help with Ofbiz
Hi:
I too was excited about Ofbiz when I found out about it. I was
searching
for a web based solution on which to run my business and I thought I
found
it. It turns out that what I found was unuseably complex, although
promising. I then sought a programmer to help me customize Ofbiz as
needed.
I, like you, balked at a price tag of nearly $30,000.00 to do the work
needed. I then thought that I would put in the time needed to learn
Ofbiz
to be able to program the back end of my site... and to allow me to earn
those high consulting fees. I completed a computer science degree ten
years
ago and spent a year and a half updating my skills learning Object
Oriented
Programming in Java in 2003. Even with this, I was unable to make any
progress trying to work through David Jones's tutorial. So I posted to
the
Ofbiz list for help getting starting with Ofbiz and got no replies...
nothing... I spent a month reading about Ofbiz, struggling to get
started,
and then decided that my time was really better spent running my
business
rather than put any more time in to this marginally supported framework.
I
sought and found a commercial solution and for less than a third of the
cost
of customizing Ofbiz, and providing almost everything I needed. It is
my
opinion that until Ofbiz can do what is needed to soften the steep
start-up
curve it will remain just a set of back-end libraries for a small number
of
programmers, not a useful tool for small businesses. Kind of like a
phrase
book for those who study Sanskrit, not fulfilling the promise of making
open-source software accessible to the masses. Good luck with Ofbiz.
If
you are interested in the solution that I found then check out PDG
Commerce.
I don't make a nickel on that suggestion.
Just my $0.02 Phil Garrow
-----Original Message-----
From: EPaulson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2007 5:20 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Help with Ofbiz
I am new to Ofbiz as a user. A few months ago I was fortunate enough
to have a friend install and configure Ofbiz for my business. I
switched my entire
operation over to the Ofbiz framework out of sheer optimism/excitement
for
the powerful potention it offers. I have spent countless hours over the
past
few years with toying with different OOTB eCommerce solutions...only to
find
that there was always some annoying limitation with each and every one
of
them. Ofbiz, I thought, was going to be the solution I had been
looking
for
the past several years. Finally...I can have EXACTLY what I need to
operate
my business the way I envision. Now the dilemma....
I am not sure if it's the version I am running OR if it's a
configuration issue, but a healthy chunk of Ofbiz features do not
function on my site. To just name one...content management. I cannot
add alt tags, policy pages,etc.
Now, my friend is too busy to work on my site regardless of an hourly
fee.
The seemingly few of dev. familiar with OFB are also too busy.
Documentation/training videos are too advanced for me unfortunately.
I am willing to put in the time to learn, but I fear that it would
take years for me to get where I need to be in order to customize OFB
for my business...AND
I don't even know where to begin.
It's frustrating to be dependant on others that have the necessary
knowledge to help you, BUT they are too busy unless I can un-ass $30K
on up to become
a top-level project myself. Please understand, I have the utmost
respect
for anyone that has the knowledge/background necessary to be able to
navigate through development/implemention of Ofb AND I completely
understand
that small business owners like myself cannot expect the same attention
as
companies with big budgets. It's unreasonable for me to expect the
luxury
of
a tailor-made ERP solution without paying what it's worth.
1) Is there anyone that has the time AND is willing to spend one-two
hours per week consulting me on Ofbiz via phone/email/livechat,etc.?
(walk me through the process of setup/config. and customization from
time to time.
If YES or if you have some positive suggestions than please email me
directly with rates/availability. I would like to delete this post
soon, so please do not respond with a post.
Thank you for taking the time to read this post.
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.11.19/956 - Release Date:
8/16/2007
9:48 AM
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.11.19/956 - Release Date: 8/16/2007
9:48 AM
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.11.19/956 - Release Date: 8/16/2007
9:48 AM
--- End Message ---
