> Currently, the connection between individual modules and the people who care > is a bit fuzzy and has resulted in decisions being taken by people who do not > have a real interest in the particular modules that are being dropped. They > have no way to connect with the interested parties or even to be sure about > who they are. > One of the values of sub-projects is that you capture groups that have a > narrow interest in particular areas but are not able to commit to the entire > project.
We have mailing lists and jira to gauge interest in a specific component. Code contributions in particular are very useful in determining interest, unless you're suggesting that the component is perfect and no further work is required. Everything in OFBiz has room for improvement and a lack of contributions is very much an indicator of a lack of interest in my opinion and experience with this project. It doesn't make any sense to create sub-projects in the hope that someone might show up and start community building. The ASF doesn't work that way for top-level projects and by the DB Project link you sent earlier implies they don't work that way for sub-projects either. A community must exist around a given component before it can have any hope of standing on its own. Regards Scott On 3/10/2014, at 7:50 pm, Ron Wheeler <rwhee...@artifact-software.com> wrote: > Are there a lot of outstanding JIRA issues that users want fixed? > It is not inconceivable that a module works as required. > I am not sure that measuring the usefulness of a module by the number of bugs > or deficiencies found recently is accurate. > > It seems to have been tested with the trunk as the core OFBiz has evolved. > > It appears that it may need some testing with the ccore 13.07.01 Release > before PROJECTMGR can be either said to work as is with 13.07.01 or released > as a new version of PROJECTMGR that does work with 13.07.01. > > If there was a sub-project with a following, there would be a group of people > who want it to work and would be prepared to do what was required to keep the > module functioning. > It would be quite clear to the people interested in PROJECTMGR that it was > their responsibility to make sure that it was functional with 13.07.01. > Currently, the connection between individual modules and the people who care > is a bit fuzzy and has resulted in decisions being taken by people who do not > have a real interest in the particular modules that are being dropped. They > have no way to connect with the interested parties or even to be sure about > who they are. > One of the values of sub-projects is that you capture groups that have a > narrow interest in particular areas but are not able to commit to the entire > project. > The people working on the release of the core also have a clear project > management group in each sub-project to consult when core functionality will > affect individual modules or when planning a release and want to let the > sub-project teams know that they must take some action in order to keep their > module functional. > > It is not inconceivable that some sub-projects will die due to lack of > interest. > PROJECTMGR seems to have some life in it but without a formal sub-project > structure it is hard to judge except from ML discussions and recent activity. > > Ron > > On 02/10/2014 3:02 PM, Scott Gray wrote: >> Surely the first step in considering a specialized component for sub-project >> creation would be the level of activity surrounding the component? >> >> Looking at the history of the projectmgr component I see 12 commits in the >> last TWO years 8 of which were global changes that coincidentally happened >> to touch on that component (translation work, global refactorings etc.). >> This leaves only 4 commits specific to the component and even those are >> minor UI adjustments. >> >> To be considered as a potential sub-project I would expect to see a hive of >> activity around that component with contributors specializing in solid >> contributions to further enhance it. "Build it and they will come" is not a >> valid approach to sub-project creation. >> >> If this component is so important to some of you, why are you not >> contributing to its enhancement? >> >> Regards >> Scott >> >> On 3/10/2014, at 2:56 am, Ron Wheeler <rwhee...@artifact-software.com> wrote: >> >>> Of course, I see a lot of benefit in the Apache approach of sub-projects >>> but perhaps the current group of committers should take some time to >>> consider this and talk to the Apache Mentors assigned to the project as >>> well as some of the project chairpersons from projects where sub-projects >>> are in use. >>> >>> One of the advantages of being an Apache project is that there are many >>> things for which there is an "Apache Way" and there are people in the >>> broader Apache community that can provide information and guidance. >>> >>> To Jacopo's point about trust. >>> I may trust someone to do one thing but not another. >>> I may trust someone with a critical task that I would not entrust to >>> another person who might be technically capable of doing it. >>> >>> As a project manager, I may trust someone to work on a particular part of >>> an application but not on the data access. >>> >>> For the project to grow, the people working on the framework are going to >>> have to get used to the idea that total strangers will be committing code >>> to the project. >>> The sub-project structure allows this to happen in a controlled way. >>> >>> It also allows sub-projects to attract the "right" mix of people which >>> would be a totally different set of skills than the Framework project would >>> want. >>> Each sub-project will develop a team personality based on the sub-project's >>> mission and the type of people required to implement the mission. >>> I would expect the framework sub-project to be "hard core" technical people >>> who know a lot about databases, security, entity modeling whereas the >>> e-Commerce team will have people who are very knowledgeable about taxation, >>> payment system integration, shopping cart design, user experience, and >>> end-user documentation. >>> The Project Management sub-project will attract people who know a lot about >>> billing for consulting companies, accounting firms and legal offices as >>> well project management, workflow, issue tracking, user interfaces, web >>> services, etc. >>> I would expect some overlap since many of the people here are very senior >>> and have skills in multiple areas but I suspect that most new people will >>> start in one sub-project and "cut their teeth" there before joining another. >>> >>> If it is done right it also makes everyone's job a lot easier and should >>> reduce the amount of ML traffic for each person. >>> >>> >>> Ron >>> >>> >>> On 02/10/2014 9:22 AM, Jacopo Cappellato wrote: >>>> In my opinion we should avoid reconsidering the idea of creating >>>> committers with limited access; instead I would prefer to invite >>>> committers when we trust them as individuals, when they have demonstrated >>>> the right attitude and skills to work in our community etc... and >>>> demonstrate enough technical skills for the work they have to do; even if >>>> it is limited to a subset of the OFBiz codebase they will get full access >>>> to the repos but of course they will limit their field of action to the >>>> area they know, without requiring us to enforce commit rights limitations. >>>> As I said this can only work if we trust them 100% as persons at first. >>>> >>>> Jacopo >>>> >>>> On Oct 2, 2014, at 2:30 PM, Jacques Le Roux <jacques.le.r...@les7arts.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> That's an interesting idea. >>>>> >>>>> Now it also means more administration and we are already a bit sparse on >>>>> the volunteering front. >>>>> >>>>> A simpler solution the OFBiz project used was to allow write access to >>>>> only parts of the repo. >>>>> This was before the Apache era. We gave up this way of doing because it >>>>> was not the Apache way. >>>>> >>>>> I have not read it all yet but for instance I read in >>>>> https://community.apache.org/newcommitter.html >>>>> <<There may be extraordinary cases where we want limited work-related >>>>> commit access. This will be resolved during the vote discussion. >> >>>>> >>>>> I don't know how technically this is possible in OFBiz trunk and >>>>> branches, apart maybe asking the infra team? Which would most probably >>>>> faces a veto... >>>>> >>>>> Jacques >>>>> >>>>> Le 01/10/2014 16:46, Ron Wheeler a écrit : >>>>>> The sub-project is a very useful Apache tool for helping projects grow. >>>>>> http://db.apache.org/newproject.html is interesting reading. >>>>>> http://ant.apache.org/antlibs/ very minimal description about Ant >>>>>> sub-projects but we all use their work. >>>>>> http://lucene.472066.n3.nabble.com/Close-of-Apache-Lucene-s-Open-Relevance-sub-project-td4141160.html >>>>>> a note about the official closure of a sub-project - very clear about >>>>>> why and what closure means. >>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apache_Ivy another popular sub-project. >>>>>> Description implies that it started in incubation and graduated to a >>>>>> top-level package and then became a sub-project of Ant. >>>>>> http://icodebythesea.blogspot.ca/2009/04/apache-servicemix-kernel-subproject.html >>>>>> is an example of a sub-project moving between two top-level projects. >>>>>> >>>>>> The sub-project structure allows for more specialization within the >>>>>> project resources so that people who are wizards with databases, >>>>>> kernels, etc get to worry about data access, performance, scalability, >>>>>> reliability, security while others who have more domain interest get to >>>>>> worry about features, usability, graphic design, workflow, reporting >>>>>> without getting in each other's hair. >>>>>> >>>>>> It also ensures a clearer demarcation between framework, core ERP and >>>>>> modules. >>>>>> I suspect that it would clean up project communication since people >>>>>> could subscribe to the sub-project lists that pertained to their >>>>>> interests. >>>>>> >>>>>> It might be easier for the existing community to accept new committers >>>>>> if the new people were part of a sub-project and were not committing to >>>>>> the particular codebase (framework, core, etc.) that the current >>>>>> committers are working on. >>>>>> >>>>>> It probably would help clarify the documentation since there would be a >>>>>> much clearer separation of framework from core from modules since each >>>>>> sub-project would have its own section in the project documentation. >>>>>> Each sub-project would have a much better defined target audience so >>>>>> writing docs would be a bit simpler and the language and terminology >>>>>> could be more relevant to the target audience. >>>>>> >>>>>> Ron >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 01/10/2014 10:17 AM, Pierre Smits wrote: >>>>>>> Ron, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In the past there was a WIKI page decribing who was interested and who >>>>>>> was willing to work on what. I don't know whether that page still >>>>>>> exists. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In the past we also had a system of having committers dedicated and >>>>>>> committed to a subset of the trunk. This should still be feasible. But >>>>>>> for that you need more committers. And to get more committers, this >>>>>>> project needs to solicit and accept more. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Pierre Smits >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>* >>>>>>> Services & Solutions for Cloud- >>>>>>> Based Manufacturing, Professional >>>>>>> Services and Retail & Trade >>>>>>> http://www.orrtiz.com <http://www.orrtiz.com/> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 1, 2014 at 4:10 PM, Ron Wheeler >>>>>>> <rwhee...@artifact-software.com >>>>>>> <mailto:rwhee...@artifact-software.com>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> A defined method of deciding what moves from the trunk to a >>>>>>> release would solve this. >>>>>>> Back to my previous comment about 1 person to test and 1 person to >>>>>>> fix bugs (could be the same person I suppose) would be a good >>>>>>> starting minimum. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ron >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 01/10/2014 2:56 AM, Pierre Smits wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The excuse of using PROJECTMgr in an older branch (12.x, the >>>>>>> latest stable >>>>>>> release) and testing it against trunk and therefor not >>>>>>> including it in a >>>>>>> release of a newer branch, is a lame one. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We are diligent about this, meaning that we do follow up >>>>>>> against any >>>>>>> potential new release branch in order to be able to migrate to >>>>>>> the newer >>>>>>> branch when there is something released. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Pierre Smits >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://ORRTIZ.COM> <http://www.orrtiz.com>* >>>>>>> Services & Solutions for Cloud- >>>>>>> Based Manufacturing, Professional >>>>>>> Services and Retail & Trade >>>>>>> http://www.orrtiz.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 1, 2014 at 7:45 AM, Jacopo Cappellato < >>>>>>> jacopo.cappell...@hotwaxmedia.com >>>>>>> <mailto:jacopo.cappell...@hotwaxmedia.com>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The fact that someone is using it in an older branch and >>>>>>> testing it in >>>>>>> trunk is not enough to guarantee it works well with 13.07; >>>>>>> the trunk and >>>>>>> 13.07 are very different codebases. >>>>>>> Additionally, the "projectmgr" component has 0 unit tests; >>>>>>> I am not sure >>>>>>> about about its stability, but for example comments in >>>>>>> code like the >>>>>>> following don't make me feel super confident: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> <!-- temporary disabled because it caused a db lock with the >>>>>>> checkProjectMembership in projectpermission services --> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> One more point to note: since the component has not been >>>>>>> in the 13.07 >>>>>>> branch, it didn't undergo the 1-year long stabilization >>>>>>> phase where only >>>>>>> bug-fixes are backported: for example, one month ago, with >>>>>>> revision >>>>>>> 1618313, it was modified by a big commit to replace a >>>>>>> series of Freemarker >>>>>>> built-ins operation that we decided to not backport to >>>>>>> 13.07 but only keep >>>>>>> in the trunk. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jacopo >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sep 30, 2014, at 11:19 PM, Ron Wheeler >>>>>>> <rwhee...@artifact-software.com >>>>>>> <mailto:rwhee...@artifact-software.com>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So, as far as is known from Pierre's testing, there is >>>>>>> no work required >>>>>>> >>>>>>> to "stabilize and bug fix" the module prior to including >>>>>>> it in 13.07.01? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Anyone else have any comments on the work required to >>>>>>> include it in >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 13.07.01? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ron >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 30/09/2014 5:13 PM, Pierre Smits wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ron, All, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We use the latest released branch, meaning 12.x. >>>>>>> We don't expose our >>>>>>> customers to an unstable unreleased branch, that >>>>>>> is still undergoing >>>>>>> significant changes. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But, we test our solutions against trunk. This >>>>>>> enables us to identify >>>>>>> issues and register them in JIRA. And supply >>>>>>> patches when workload >>>>>>> >>>>>>> allows >>>>>>> >>>>>>> it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So yes, PROJECTMGR, SCRUM, etc work also in r13.x >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Pierre Smits >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://ORRTIZ.COM> >>>>>>> <http://www.orrtiz.com>* >>>>>>> Services & Solutions for Cloud- >>>>>>> Based Manufacturing, Professional >>>>>>> Services and Retail & Trade >>>>>>> http://www.orrtiz.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 10:22 PM, Ron Wheeler < >>>>>>> rwhee...@artifact-software.com >>>>>>> <mailto:rwhee...@artifact-software.com>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Are you using it with a 12.04 or 13.xx? >>>>>>> What work is required to get it into 13.07? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ron >>>>>>> On 30/09/2014 3:06 PM, Pierre Smits wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Yes, I also have a vested interest in >>>>>>> keeping this (PROJECTMGR) in the >>>>>>> releases. It is part of our ORRTIZ:COM >>>>>>> solution portfolio for our >>>>>>> customers >>>>>>> and we use it internally. And I have >>>>>>> contributed to the improvement >>>>>>> >>>>>>> of the >>>>>>> >>>>>>> component. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We, at ORRTIZ:COM, even use an extension >>>>>>> to the code base to ensure >>>>>>> >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> >>>>>>> it >>>>>>> also works for fixed price and internal >>>>>>> projects. This extension >>>>>>> >>>>>>> includes >>>>>>> >>>>>>> generating the gl transactions regarding >>>>>>> the cost price of each hour >>>>>>> registered regarding a project. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We also use the LDAP component to connect >>>>>>> to our directory server >>>>>>> >>>>>>> (Apache >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Directory Server). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Pierre Smits >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://ORRTIZ.COM> >>>>>>> <http://www.orrtiz.com>* >>>>>>> Services & Solutions for Cloud- >>>>>>> Based Manufacturing, Professional >>>>>>> Services and Retail & Trade >>>>>>> http://www.orrtiz.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 4:39 PM, Ron Wheeler >>>>>>> >>>>>>> <rwheeler@artifact-software. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> It would be for me since it is one of >>>>>>> the components that I want to >>>>>>> >>>>>>> use. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Perhaps the more knowledgeable people >>>>>>> might want to share a bit more >>>>>>> >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> >>>>>>> the background of the feature. >>>>>>> Is it in 12.xx.xx? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Is it currently in the 13.07 branch >>>>>>> and therefor currently part of >>>>>>> >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 13.07 versions that people have put in >>>>>>> production or is it just in >>>>>>> >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> >>>>>>> trunk that people are putting into >>>>>>> production? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What are the issues that need to be >>>>>>> addressed before it is >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "stabilized >>>>>>> >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> bug fixed"? >>>>>>> Do any of these issues pose a >>>>>>> significant risk to the stability of >>>>>>> >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> >>>>>>> rest of the functionality? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Is anyone using it in production? What >>>>>>> are their opinions of the >>>>>>> >>>>>>> state of >>>>>>> >>>>>>> the code and the degree of risk? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Is anyone prepared to take on the task >>>>>>> of getting it "stabilized and >>>>>>> >>>>>>> bug >>>>>>> >>>>>>> fixed" to a point where it can be >>>>>>> safely included? >>>>>>> What is the estimate of the minimum >>>>>>> effort required? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ron >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 30/09/2014 9:58 AM, Mike wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Why not deploy it as another >>>>>>> hot-deploy component? Is it >>>>>>> >>>>>>> considered a >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "core" ERP component? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 2:59 AM, >>>>>>> Pierre Smits < >>>>>>> >>>>>>> pierre.sm...@gmail.com <mailto:pierre.sm...@gmail.com>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jacopo, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Back then there were already >>>>>>> strong objections to excluding >>>>>>> >>>>>>> components >>>>>>> >>>>>>> from >>>>>>> the release. I recall that >>>>>>> Hans also wanted to keep the >>>>>>> SCRUM >>>>>>> >>>>>>> component >>>>>>> >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> the release, as well as there >>>>>>> were proponents for BIRT and >>>>>>> other >>>>>>> components. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> These are good additions to >>>>>>> the feature set of OFBiz and >>>>>>> may be in >>>>>>> >>>>>>> use >>>>>>> >>>>>>> already by community members. >>>>>>> It would be best that you >>>>>>> solicit the >>>>>>> advice >>>>>>> of the entire community before >>>>>>> a decision on excluding >>>>>>> components >>>>>>> >>>>>>> from >>>>>>> >>>>>>> any >>>>>>> release is taken. This affects >>>>>>> more participants in this project >>>>>>> >>>>>>> than >>>>>>> >>>>>>> just >>>>>>> you and the committers. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Pierre Smits >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *ORRTIZ.COM >>>>>>> <http://ORRTIZ.COM> >>>>>>> <http://www.orrtiz.com>* >>>>>>> Services & Solutions for Cloud- >>>>>>> Based Manufacturing, Professional >>>>>>> Services and Retail & Trade >>>>>>> http://www.orrtiz.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 11:49 >>>>>>> AM, Jacopo Cappellato < >>>>>>> jacopo.cappell...@hotwaxmedia.com >>>>>>> <mailto:jacopo.cappell...@hotwaxmedia.com>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ok, got it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The release process that >>>>>>> the OFBiz community is >>>>>>> following is >>>>>>> >>>>>>> based on >>>>>>> >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> feature freeze phase, that >>>>>>> for the 13.07 branch >>>>>>> started more than >>>>>>> >>>>>>> one >>>>>>> >>>>>>> year >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ago, during which only bug >>>>>>> fixes are backported. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This is done in order to >>>>>>> stabilize the branch >>>>>>> before an official >>>>>>> release >>>>>>> is done. Since the >>>>>>> "projectmgr" component has >>>>>>> never been part of >>>>>>> >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 13.07 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> branch then it may be unsafe >>>>>>> to include it now just before the >>>>>>> >>>>>>> release >>>>>>> >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> issued. It would be better >>>>>>> to discuss its inclusion >>>>>>> in the >>>>>>> >>>>>>> upcoming >>>>>>> >>>>>>> new >>>>>>> release branch where it >>>>>>> could be stabilized and >>>>>>> bug fixed. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jacopo >>>>>>> >>> > > > -- > Ron Wheeler > President > Artifact Software Inc > email: rwhee...@artifact-software.com > skype: ronaldmwheeler > phone: 866-970-2435, ext 102 >
