Eddie Bush wrote:
I think Joe makes a good point. Shale is what we have as a possible direction ... and it's being fleshed out. Jerico, better or worse, I don't think is.
At this point, we're probably better to "put our code where our mouths are", if we don't like the direction things are headed.
<flashback>
You know, when I was a kid, I thought life was fantastic, save for the nights I absolutely forced my dad to blister my bottom to make me go to bed (kids ... it's their job) - it was so simple! After several years though, I got a few more years on me and daddy just kept making me behave more and more! Argh! Life wasn't quite as simple anymore :-( I had more responsibilities and more expectations laid on me.
Hey! That kinda sounds like Struts, doesn't it? Hrm ... You know, I'm losing my hair, and I don't look like I used to either. Heck, I've gained a good 20 pounds since I was in college - and we won't talk about since Highschool!
</flashback>
:-)
Struts is kind of Craig's baby. I think it's pretty suitable that he make his baby grow up to prepare it for the big bad world. As with any parent, all he can do is steer it in the direction he feels is right. A parent *is* morally obligated to teach their children the best they can, after all.
All I'm saying is that instead of casting all the dissenting remarks, we should recognize that Craig has put his best foot forward (People kinda thought he was nuts when he started Struts, if I remember the stories). If a person has an implementation to put along-side of what he's got then I don't think it'd be real hard to do some comparison shopping, but it's pretty hard to comparison shop without something to compare to. Duh? Hehehe ...
You are right on the target, man. As Ted has spoken on several places that real developers write proposed codes to get feed back from others. He/she then uses the codes to make a living. This is the greatest part of open sources, relying on economic invisible hand. I like to go half step further that as a technology entrepreneur (i am not a programmer geek), i make my decision based on real deliverables that best meet requirements. We are accountable for our own actions.
Speaking out different opinions however is a very healthy first step while waiting for real codes on the table and keep things in proper perspective. Until we have real codes, we proceed with what is available.
BaTien DBGROUPS
Maybe I'm too trusting, but having observed Craig's comments on shale and JSF and the pieces of JSF that "Shale proposes to depend upon", and realizing that he's in a very select, choice position so far as perspectives are concerned, I'm inclined to trust the guy. ... especially when he keeps saying, "It'll be alright" (basically) and all the people that have something negative to say about Shale have to chip-in "... but I'm really not familiar with Faces".
So far as Hans' comment goes. Whose word are you going to take? You've got a choice between Hans, who is certainly a sharp cookie, and Craig. Hans is a bright guy who has done his homework and written us some fine literature ... and Craig is out there setting the tone for JSF ... oh, wait, Craig pretty well set the tone for Struts too - he invented it!
... my money is on Craig ... :-)
Peace ;-)
Eddie
P.S. - There's nothing wrong with discussion. Discussions generally have two sides though, and most of what I've heard about Shale here is pretty one-sided. My personal opinion is that it's time for folks to stop putting it down unless they've got a better idea and some code to put with it.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Dakota Jack" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2004 12:01 AM Subject: Re: JerichoFaces ?
On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 09:18:18 -0600, Joe Germuska <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I think a lot of people are making a mistake by making more out of Shale than it is. Shale is a proposal and a prototype. It is here now for people to use it and see what they thing of it. It is taking the opportunity to re-imagine Struts free of some of the backwards compatibility baggage that Struts 1.x has.
Shale is Java ServerFaces: "ViewController is an interface describing a JavaBean that is associated with a JavaServer Faces view (typically a JSP page)", cf. http://www.apache.org/~craigmcc/struts-shale/. Java ServerFaces or Shale and Struts are different and inherently incompatible visions, cf. the connection between Struts and JavaServer Faces in Hans Bergsten's book on the same. Is pointing this out or raising the issue a problem?
The name "Struts" has great branding value as the advocates of Shale and Java ServerFaces clearly see. If you want to take that name and give it to something fundamentally and philosophically inconsistent, be my guest. You are right. People can continue to work on Struts after the name has been moved to an architecture which is inconsistent with Struts. Things get a little confusing, perhaps, but that can be done.
But, saying that this is happening (1) is not to denigrate Shale or Java ServerFaces; (2) has nothing to do with the ASF open source process and what people can and cannot work on; (3) is not to support or to decry the process. Heck, maybe this is not right. Seems to me that discussion of what is happening and knowledge of the same is legitimate, isn't it? People can do what they want. There still is the need to be aware of what is happening in making such choices. No?
Jack
"You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep."
~Native Proverb~
"Each man is good in His sight. It is not necessary for eagles to be crows."
~Hunkesni (Sitting Bull), Hunkpapa Sioux~
--------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 0447-1, 11/19/2004 Tested on: 11/21/2004 3:04:21 AM avast! - copyright (c) 2000-2004 ALWIL Software. http://www.avast.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
.
--------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
