On Fri, March 17, 2006 8:12 am, Ted Husted said: > I think one mark of a committer and PMC member is that we don't have > those type of passions. There are three of four of those passionate > types on this thread. But none of them are committers. And, out of the > thousands of people who subscribe to this list, it's the same three or > four people who complain, over and over again. (What's is the sound of > one hand clapping?)
It's the sound of someone slapping someone upside the head by saying what needs to be said. I've got cliches I can pull out of the drawer too... It is difficult telling unpleasent things to power. I have no problem doing so. You can still ignore me, that is your right, but when I feel something needs to be said you better believe I'm going to say it. If I have to eat my words later I will do so, but inaction is far worse than being wrong IMO. Truth is nothing but a feeling that something is true. Therefore, not saying how you feel is tantamount to a lie IMO. If you can't dazzle them with your brilliance, baffle them with your bullshit. Of course, how one defines bullshit is quite subjective... I know how *I* define it. Are we done lobbing pointless cliches now? > Committers tend to be pragmatic people who are just trying to earn our > living building applications that work. We aren't trying to be an > expert committee that decides what everyone else should be doing. > We're just trying to solve our own problems and share the solutions. > Like every working engineer, sometimes we get to choose what > technologies we use. Sometimes the technologies choose us. *YOUR* trying to share *YOUR* solutions. But if someone else wants to share their solutions, they have to go *through* you. And you don't see why there's frustration? Oh, I think I know what you'd say to that... there are alternatives. And your right! That's how Java Web Parts got started. I wanted to share my solutions too, let people decide if they liked them or not, use them if they want or not, and I wasn't allowed to do it here. So, I went elsewhere. And you know, it worked out for the best, so I suppose in the end I should thank you! You are in a unique position, and if you don't see that then you are blind. And you aren't an expert committee? Then why write books telling us what Struts "best practices" are? Why write articles telling us how things "should" be done in Struts? Unless they start out with something like "here's how I do things, and it seems to work pretty well, but whatever", then you in fact ARE an expert committe, perhaps of one but still, trying to tell everyone what they should be doing. It's still your opinion in the end, but it is viewed as authoritative, and therefore carries more weight. This implies responsibility. And forget all that... let's say I'm completely off-base there... the simple fact is that people in the community look to the committers as subject matter experts, and if you don't understand that, then again, you are really quite blind. And if you don't think that infers a certain degree of responsibility, then we really do have nothing further to talk about. > Right now, I don't need to use JSF. Six months from now, I might. And > should that day come, I'll be very glad that both my old and new > friends have been cranking out Shale code that I will be able to use. > And since we are on the same dev list, it's easy for me to keep up > with what we are doing with Shale, even if I don't need to use it at > work today. Duty now for the future! This is someone else' argument, so I won't step into it. > It's a little bit like saying that because my brother likes the Titans > and I like the Falcons, one of us has to move, since we couldn't > possibly live under one roof, and share our love for football. Sure > there are some people who can't put aside their fanatism, and who > insist on arguing about things that in five or six years won't matter. > But, those people are not the Struts committers. Putting aside the football analogy, Ted, can you explain to me why voicing ones' opinion, even if contrary to everyone else', is so intrinsicly evil? You seem to have a big problem with a few of us who are questioning what we see as things that are wrong, or sub-optimal. Do you always have such an issue with hearing things you don't agree with? You are never obligated to answer back... in fact, I believe you've said many times that the way to get rid of a troll is to not feed them. Clearly you view a few of us as trolls. Why is it that in your mind, "troll" equates to someone that holds a different opinion than you? Is the senator that stands in the well and speaks his mind and disagrees with his colleagues a "troll", or is it someone who cares about something giving the opposing view in the hopes of improving things? The majority will decide whether they are right or wrong, as it should be, but shouldn't he be doing exactly what he's doing? Ok, I suppose using politicians in that argument wasn't such a good idea :) I have to believe at least *one* of them have our best intersts at heart, and that's the one I'm thinking of in this analogy :) > As for this thread, I've said all that I have to say, several times > over. I won't say anything more. If some people don't understand our > position, that's fine. A lot of people don't understand the Apache > Culture. But, if someone doesn't understand us, please don't assume we > are anything other than what we appear to be. A gaggle of engineeers > trying to solve our own problems in a cooperative, collaborative way. > That's what we were six years ago, and that's what we will be six > years from now. Well, there is our basic disagreement... I believe by accepting a certain position you have become something more, and have a greater responsibility, than just a gaggle of engineers. If that is contrary to the Apache Culture, than clearly I believe that culture is not as optimal as it could be. So be it. I have no problem that we disagree Ted, and I don't even know if I'm right, I only know what I think and feel at this moment. My only problem is with your characterization of someone that doesn't agree with you as somehow doing something wrong, of being a "troll", which is what I surmise you believe us to be. Whether someone says something once or a hundred times shouldn't make a whole lot of difference IMO. Something things have to be said over and over and over again before they sink in and have any effect. You know, I've been on these lists quite a while... roughly two years IIRC. I have a certain record, and anyone can review it, and I am not ashamed of it (of one or two incidents, yes... I'm not perfect and have never claimed to be). I have been helpful to a great many people I believe, and I think I generally have a reputation as being someone that will do what they can to help others for no other reason than I like to help people when I can. If that alone hasn't earned me the right to disagree and say what I feel about pretty much anything, than I really don't know what to say. I have tried very hard to not be disrespectful in this thread, even when I felt I was justified in doing so. I can only hope that disagreement is not construed as disrespect by you, or anyone else. > -Ted. Frank --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
