I completely agree with your points; we have a finite amount of resources and choose to focus on language compatibility over .NET web-stack integration. Though IronPython has done that web-work in the past, we're purely focused on compat. I've forwarded on the previous mail to the ASP.NET team; I want to see IronPython and IronRuby be used on the web more too. =)
That being said, I've just finished packaging up Microsoft.Web.Scripting.dll that works against the released IronPython 2 Beta 1, and I'll be releasing it either today to tomorrow ... so end of conversation? =P Na, I this is a good conversation to have, but in short you'll be able to use IronPython 2 Beta 1 in ASP.NET very soon again. Hopefully the next beta of IronPython 2.6 will include the DLL and source, otherwise I'll make this package again. ~js From: Dody Gunawinata [mailto:empirebuil...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2009 4:23 AM To: Jimmy Schementi Cc: Discussion of IronPython Subject: Re: [IronPython] IronPython for ASP.Net The refresh was unusable because it contained the version of IronPyton that is not compatible with .Net 3.5 framework (I think it was built on IP 2.0 Beta 3/4); I'm griping about this issue in this list because I don't think this is a completely separate issue from the DLR programming languages. Maybe it is not a direct responsibility of this team, but the impact is direct for the following reasons: * Nobody adopts a language as is. The libraries matters. The existing community of Python and Ruby are not going to move to Windows platform just because IronPython and IronRuby are being worked on and released. They have had a multi platform runtimes with de facto standards that are capable of doing wonderful things for more than a decade. * There is much bigger market for language adoption for existing .Net/Windows based developers (and new developers) and these guys/gals are using mostly standard Microsoft stacks. And they are using .Net via mainly C# and VB.Net. If the DLR languages do not have proper support at least for the major technology stacks (I would consider ASP.Net/Silverlight as major stacks), many people will not consider using the DLR based language for their production systems. * I know ASP.Net MVC is open source and it's free to be extended etc, but ASP.Net WebForm have be en deployed massively and that's not going to change anytime soon. And theres is already a support, albeit poor and not up to date, for ASP.Net webform stacks in IronPython. Not having it fully updated is a waste of opportunity. * .Net 4.0 and C# vNext contains dynamic language support but really, what is good for if the DLR languages can only be used in much more limited scenarios because some major technology stacks are not supported. * You raised correctly that Django and RoR are being used to validate the languages. But I would argue that the existing technology stack support validates the DLR platform, not just the languages. So yes, I'm not happy with the level of investment being put on supporting the technology stacks because I think it is pretty short sighted. No, I don't blame this team for this but at least if I complain on this list, it might have a chance being forwarded internally because this is one of the best community mailing list for Microsoft technologies. Dody Gunawinata On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 5:17 AM, Jimmy Schementi <jimmy.scheme...@microsoft.com<mailto:jimmy.scheme...@microsoft.com>> wrote: First off, it hasn't been three years: a refresh was released 8 months ago, and sent to this very list: http://lists.ironpython.com/pipermail/users-ironpython.com/2008-September/008497.html Secondly, rather than just producing these one off releases (where are very taxing on the team), we're doing it right and getting the source code released and Ms-Pl'd, so we can include it on Codeplex sources, builds, and nightly builds. Then it can be included in each IronPython release, just like Silverlight binaries are. Lastly, IronRuby and IronPython are programming languages, made by programming language teams. We're very interested in running as many existing Ruby and Python programs as possible. It just so happens that Django and Rails are popular, complex pieces of software that help find bugs, and give the languages street cred for running them. If those web frameworks didn't run, theirs probably something wrong with our language. Running in ASP.NET<http://ASP.NET> and MVC require a significant amount of work outside of the language, so it really isn't a language team's purpose to build that. Sure they provide good demos as conferences or blog posts, but they'll only be toys. We've invested in those technologies before, which is why the ASP.NET<http://ASP.NET> and Silverlight integration exists, but no one is working on enabling web-technologies full-time (though I have spurts of diving back into Silverlight from time to time). If you don't like the level of investment in dynamic languages for Microsoft web technologies, that's something that you should communicate to the ASP.NET<http://ASP.NET> team; Phil Haack (http://www.haacked.com) or Dmitry Robsman (http://blogs.msdn.com/dmitryr) are good people to address. ~Jimmy From: users-boun...@lists.ironpython.com<mailto:users-boun...@lists.ironpython.com> [mailto:users-boun...@lists.ironpython.com<mailto:users-boun...@lists.ironpython.com>] On Behalf Of Dody Gunawinata Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2009 1:22 PM To: Discussion of IronPython Subject: [IronPython] IronPython for ASP.Net Is there any update for IronPython for ASP.Net? It has been three years since IronPython support for ASP.Net introduced with the release of the whitepaper (http://www.asp.net/DynamicLanguages/whitepaper/) and the first binary. Since then I think we've had Katrina, a Beijing Olympic, a new President, a financial collapse and two James Bond movies - yet until now there is still no up to date support for the technology. I know that the legal team, etc are working on the source release, but I think it is pretty galling that Microsoft's own web framework stack is barely supported by its own dynamic language technology, both on the 'classic' ASP.Net and MVC stack. I mean there is more energy put into having IronPython and IronRuby to run Django and RubyOnRails web framework instead of ASP.Net stack. This just doesn't make sense to me. -- nomadlife.org<http://nomadlife.org> -- nomadlife.org<http://nomadlife.org>
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