I completely agree with IPy being Microsoft-supported lowers the barrier of entry to enterprise use. I have this problem long time back using Python as the company is a Microsoft shop (mostly). But IronPython being Microsoft pretty much is approved already, no question ask.
I am hoping to hear that IronPython will be supported by MS in the next 2 to 5 years or longer ( forever :-) ) if possible. -yngipy On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 4:34 PM, Hank Fay <h...@prosysplus.com> wrote: > Hi Tony, > > I have to agree about the barrier being lower if IPy is Microsoft-supported > (as all the Iron* languages were announced to be). I had a discussion in > January with a market-leader in another country, and their project manager > could accept IronPython, barely. His take was: I want to be able to easily > hire programmers for customization and/or sourcecode escrow clause > necessity. Customization wasn't really an issue (the program uses hooks for > customization), as he could hire his bevy of C# developers to do that, but > if he had to maintain sourcecode that would be a different story. > > Having come from a very productive dynamic language (Visual FoxPro) that MS > first said could not be ported to .Net, and then when it obviously was > possible (in 2005) made no attempt to do so, I'm having a deja vu experience > all over again. I'll try not to be as cynical and sarcastic as last time, > but I'm having to hold my arm down (shades of Dr. Strangelove) and hold my > tongue to prevent shouting out "Middle Management Uber Alles!" (referencing > Jimmy's blog post). > > And so it goes... > > Hank > > > On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 12:43 AM, Tony Meyer <tony.me...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 6:19 AM, Jeff Hardy <jdha...@gmail.com> wrote: >> > if [Iron*] die, doesn't that mean MS made the right choice after all? >> >> I don't think that's true. .NET isn't just another platform - it's >> Microsoft's own platform. Some thoughts: >> >> Like it or not, and whether it *should* be the case or not, in many >> organisations (or even teams) if a technology is from Microsoft then >> it's automatically approved, or at least much easier to approve. The >> barrier to using Iron* is much lower because they are Microsoft >> products - this is even more the case with Visual Studio integration. >> >> Although Iron* are open-source (which is great, obviously), they >> aren't typical open-source communities, because of the (somewhat >> understandable) restriction about accepting code, and the leadership >> all (AFAIK) being within Microsoft. Microsoft have created this >> environment (which has worked fairly well so far), and it's not clear >> how easily that can transition to something that's lead by someone (or >> ones) outside of Microsoft. >> >> Leadership (or at least involvement) within Microsoft opens >> opportunities for Iron* development to influence .NET. I'm not overly >> familiar with the details, but I gather than the DLR approach is >> significantly superior to the IPy 1 CLR approach, and that some of the >> new dynamic features of C# have benefited from this. It's hard to see >> how a community IronPython could have developed the DLR, and it seems >> unlikely that Microsoft would make changes to the CLR to assist it. >> (Does the latest Microsoft Javascript engine use the DLR (Managed >> JScript?) - if so, then there's hope, I guess). >> >> Projects often need 'angels', especially in the early stages (and I >> would argue that Iron* are still in early stages). Working on a >> project of this size takes a lot of resources, and having corporate >> sponsors makes that a lot easier. Would Python have succeeded if CWI, >> CNRI, and BeOpen hadn't supported Guido (and others)'s work in the >> early days? These days the PSF takes this role, but projects need >> time to build to that sort of size. >> >> [Iron]Python (I don't really know much about [Iron]Ruby) is a great >> language for beginners (students, kids, hobbyists, etc). The Iron >> variants provide a very smooth path into other .NET development (e.g. >> C# - which I would say is not at all a great beginner's language). >> You could argue that Visual Basic provides this functionality as well >> - I personally find Python much superior to Visual Basic, and since >> nearly all other BASIC variants are dead now, it doesn't provide an >> easy road into the .NET world (you have to start there with an >> unfamiliar language). >> >> This last point is the most relevant to me. Over the last few years, >> NorthTec have switched to using CPython as the first-course >> programming language, and IronPython as the second-course language. >> The students *need* to end up with some .NET and Visual Studio >> experience, because realistically that's what they are most likely to >> come across in the real world. Many of the students are not capable >> of starting with C#. If IronPython wasn't a Microsoft project, it >> would have been considerably more difficult to adopt it - that would >> likely have meant using Visual Basic (possibly in both courses, >> because these students struggle learning two languages in their first >> year). Although this is my unique case, I suspect that there are >> similar ones, where being a Microsoft product is a deciding factor in >> whether Iron* can be used (which then impacts the adoption of the >> language, and therefore whether the language survives). >> >> > I think Microsoft is throwing their weight behind JavaScript as their >> > dynamic language of choice, and I can't really blame them. >> >> My hope is that Microsoft realises they have enough weight to throw it >> in more than once place. >> >> (My longer hope, which I know is quite unlikely, is that Windows 8 or >> 9 includes some version of Iron* out of the box, like OS X includes >> Python/Perl/PHP/Ruby/etc. Being able to distribute .py[co] files >> rather than .exes would significantly help Iron* adoption IMO (and >> this is something completely impossible for a non-Microsoft Iron*). I >> know some people must like PowerShell and similar things could be done >> with it, but it's not the same as having a language with the power and >> cross-platform nature of Python). >> >> Cheers, >> Tony >> _______________________________________________ >> Users mailing list >> Users@lists.ironpython.com >> http://lists.ironpython.com/listinfo.cgi/users-ironpython.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Users mailing list > Users@lists.ironpython.com > http://lists.ironpython.com/listinfo.cgi/users-ironpython.com > >
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