It's not too hard to write forrest documentation. It takes a little bit of effort and if you or any other user does not want to put forth that effort then fine. As for your lack of interest in creating svn patches ... well that is how things are done at the ASF. The project is not a giant free-for-all like a wiki is.
We rely on our users to help us. There are many ways to help. The most important is this mailing list. Users helping other users. If you have something you want to share with other users then the wiki is fine. Nobody is afraid of wikis and if you look at what I said in my earlier post, I gave several examples of where wiki's are appropriate. In fact, I am the one who added a link to the wiki from our website and I made several updates to the wiki (for project management stuff) just yesterday. The tomahawk documentation is a key part of the MyFaces project that is every bit as important as the source code. So therefore we have chosen to put the same restrictions on this documentation as we do the source code. Yes that slows things down but you are focusing on the down-side. It also keeps things under control and useable. Again I refer you to other ASF projects (commons, ant, struts, etc.) Some have wikis but the key documentation on how to use the product is part of svn and under control of the PMC and committers. Sorry, that's just how ASF works. We're happy to accept consider any of your suggestions/contributions. If you would like to limit your contributions to mailing list participation and/or wiki documentation we welcome your help. I agree that there is a lack of documentation. We are working on it. We all have day jobs and things on this project are moving incredibly fast. Please bear with us or better yet, help us in the way we most need help (xdocs and svn patches.) sean > I'm not saying *I* am not writing doc's on the wiki. I am saying that > with these rules, there won't be a giant, inspired, communal effort to > create the docs. I *am* saying that I will not be submitting patches > for documentation, and that I suspect nobody will, because of the large > effort this requires, in contrast to editing a wiki. And with this > setup, that effort (during a development project at your day time job, > with an undoubtedly impossible deadline) doesn't weigh against the eeny > weeny gain in your noösphere ;-). Like all OSS, it's about scratching > your own itch. People are simply not inclined to work on make-believe > material, and right now the wiki is playing house, not the 'real' > stuff. Imagine the people at WikiPedia saying "yeah, yeah, but what you > type here is not interesting, not 'real', you should see the 'real' > stuff we do". > And with what I am seeing on progress you make on the code, the pain it > takes to get to a next stable version, and the effort that goes in > there (see the masses of communication on the mailing list and in the > JIRA), I believe the project people (kudo's) won't have the time to > copy doc's to svn. Let's be honest: this hasn't been a serious > consideration in the past. Yes, this is a note of critique: this > project is seriously under-documented (not only in the user doc's, but > also in the source code, BTW). > > So, by combining these opinions, I come to the conclusion that there > will be no, not even mediocre, evolving, user documentation in the > foreseeable future. Like I said: bummer. > > Frankly, this discussion (I really didn't intend on starting, but it's > a slow night here ;-)) reminds me a bit of the discussion 2 months ago > about using maven or not. It is clear that the project leaders are not > comfortable, in this case, with the basic idea of wiki. We have a > different opinion on that (I have enormously positive experiences with > wiki's), and that's ok. Still kudo's and muchas gracias for the MyFaces > effort. > > > On 25 Aug 2005, at 22:47, Mike Kienenberger wrote: > > > No one is saying that you shouldn't write the docs on the wiki. > > They're just saying that the "official" version of the documentation > > is in svn, and that documentation in the wiki eventually needs to be > > ported over to the website, and that submitting a patch to do so make > > the process go faster. > > > > In my opinion, this is the correct choice. The website/xml docs are > > something that can be distributed and used without an internet > > connection, while the wiki requires an active internet connection. > > > > -Mike > > > > On 8/25/05, ir. ing. Jan Dockx <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> You obviously have a lot of time at your disposal ;-). But hey, it's > >> you project. I was writing some doc's on the wiki right now, but I am > >> not going to go through the hassle of creating patches and stuff. You > >> obviously want tight control, and you're welcome to that, of course. > >> Sadly, that means no doc's by Monday, created by a giant, > >> well-willing, > >> communal user effort. ;-). Bummer. > >> > >> On 25 Aug 2005, at 21:08, Sean Schofield wrote: > >> > >>> I disagree with moving stuff from the website to the wiki. I think > >>> the component doc should go on the website and be part of the > >>> official > >>> MyFaces svn. This will also ensure uniform standards and quality of > >>> the doc. > >>> > >>> If users want to put extra component doc in the wiki (or are not > >>> comfortable with Forrest or subversion) then as Martin said, this > >>> will > >>> be a small help b/c eventually we can move it. > >>> > >>> IMO wiki is also a good candidate for server configuration, IDE > >>> configuration, etc. Additional examples are also fine for wiki. But > >>> documentation on the components should be on the website. That's > >>> what > >>> is expected. Check out the Ant project. You will see all of the > >>> tasks documented right there (no wiki.) > >>> > >>> sean > >>> > >>> On 8/25/05, ir. ing. Jan Dockx <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >>>> Well, -1 on that, actually. I am a great believer in wiki's, and I > >>>> suggest that you won't copy the doc to the homepage, but link from > >>>> the > >>>> homepage to the wiki. One of the stifling things about the MyFaces > >>>> documentation is that it is in Too Many Places. Nobody knows where > >>>> to > >>>> look exactly, people are not eager to work on doc's that are not the > >>>> reals doc's, and create patches and submit them and stuff is far to > >>>> time consuming. For writing doc's in the wiki, you don't need to > >>>> checkout the source tree. This is enduser documentation, not > >>>> developer > >>>> documentation, so the overhead is stifling the work. > >>>> > >>>> I suggest "we" decide that the documentation will be the wiki. Let's > >>>> move whatever there is in /forest/content to the wiki (users can do > >>>> that), and kill that part it Subversion. The examples should stay. > >>>> At > >>>> a > >>>> (much) later date, somebody could decide to create a pdf or a book > >>>> based on the wiki, but that's another story, and not our current > >>>> concern. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On 25 Aug 2005, at 16:29, Martin Marinschek wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> +1 > >>>>> > >>>>> ;) > >>>>> > >>>>> If you want to get involved even more, it would be great if you > >>>>> would > >>>>> add this documentation to the /forrest/content section of our > >>>>> sourcetree for viewing it on the homepage. > >>>>> > >>>>> (just send us patches, we will commit them) > >>>>> > >>>>> If not, just put it on the WIKI, and gradually we will move it over > >>>>> to > >>>>> the homepage. > >>>>> > >>>>> regards, > >>>>> > >>>>> Martin > >>>>> > >>>>> On 8/25/05, Clément Maignien <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> +1 > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -----Message d'origine----- > >>>>>> De : ir. ing. Jan Dockx [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>>>> Envoyé : jeudi 25 août 2005 16:16 > >>>>>> À : MyFaces Discussion > >>>>>> Objet : Let's write that doc! > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I suggest that we make this a user effort. Everybody, make an > >>>>>> account > >>>>>> in the > >>>>>> wiki, and <a > >>>>>> href="http://wiki.apache.org/myfaces/MyFacesComponents";>let's > >>>>>> start documenting those components</a>. If everybody writes a > >>>>>> little > >>>>>> piece > >>>>>> (what is it for, how to use it), we'll have full documentation by > >>>>>> Monday. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I just added a little grain. More to come, I promise. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On 25 Aug 2005, at 15:30, Sean Schofield wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Thanks so much for pointing out that messages tag. I was just > >>>>>> about > >>>>>> to write something similar because I didn't know about it. Is it > >>>>>> listed somewhere on the MyFaces website? I don't see it here: > >>>>>> http://myfaces.apache.org/tomahawk/overview.html > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Unfortunately that page is woefully out of date. Updating it is on > >>>>>> my > >>>>>> shortlist of things to do. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Regarding your comment on it being specific to MyFaces: Isn't it > >>>>>> only > >>>>>> specific to the MyFaces extensions? In other words, couldn't I use > >>>>>> it > >>>>>> with the RI as long as I included the myfaces-extensions-1.0.9.jar > >>>>>> and > >>>>>> referenced the taglib? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Right you can use tomahawk with the RI and if you want that > >>>>>> functionality use <t:message> instead of <h:message>. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -Ken > >>>>>> > >>>>>> sean > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Met vriendelijke groeten, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Jan Dockx > >>>>>> > >>>>>> PeopleWare NV - Head Office > >>>>>> Cdt.Weynsstraat 85 > >>>>>> B-2660 Hoboken > >>>>>> Tel: +32 3 448.33.38 > >>>>>> Fax: +32 3 448.32.66 > >>>>>> > >>>>>> PeopleWare NV - Branch Office Geel > >>>>>> Kleinhoefstraat 5 > >>>>>> B-2440 Geel > >>>>>> Tel: +32 14 57.00.90 > >>>>>> Fax: +32 14 58.13.25 > >>>>>> > >>>>>> http://www.peopleware.be/ > >>>>>> http://www.mobileware.be/ > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -- > >>>>> > >>>>> http://www.irian.at > >>>>> Your JSF powerhouse - > >>>>> JSF Trainings in English and German > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> Met vriendelijke groeten, > >>>> > >>>> Jan Dockx > >>>> > >>>> PeopleWare NV - Head Office > >>>> Cdt.Weynsstraat 85 > >>>> B-2660 Hoboken > >>>> Tel: +32 3 448.33.38 > >>>> Fax: +32 3 448.32.66 > >>>> > >>>> PeopleWare NV - Branch Office Geel > >>>> Kleinhoefstraat 5 > >>>> B-2440 Geel > >>>> Tel: +32 14 57.00.90 > >>>> Fax: +32 14 58.13.25 > >>>> > >>>> http://www.peopleware.be/ > >>>> http://www.mobileware.be/ > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >> Met vriendelijke groeten, > >> > >> Jan Dockx > >> > >> PeopleWare NV - Head Office > >> Cdt.Weynsstraat 85 > >> B-2660 Hoboken > >> Tel: +32 3 448.33.38 > >> Fax: +32 3 448.32.66 > >> > >> PeopleWare NV - Branch Office Geel > >> Kleinhoefstraat 5 > >> B-2440 Geel > >> Tel: +32 14 57.00.90 > >> Fax: +32 14 58.13.25 > >> > >> http://www.peopleware.be/ > >> http://www.mobileware.be/ > >> > >> > >> > > > > > Met vriendelijke groeten, > > Jan Dockx > > PeopleWare NV - Head Office > Cdt.Weynsstraat 85 > B-2660 Hoboken > Tel: +32 3 448.33.38 > Fax: +32 3 448.32.66 > > PeopleWare NV - Branch Office Geel > Kleinhoefstraat 5 > B-2440 Geel > Tel: +32 14 57.00.90 > Fax: +32 14 58.13.25 > > http://www.peopleware.be/ > http://www.mobileware.be/ > > >
