Jiri Kuthan wrote:
Hi Daniel,
thank you for your speech. I do not wish to discourage you in your enthusiasm,
but at the same moment I prefer to rely on accurate measurements and not to
spend time on undermining their results or relevance in a derogative way. The data
shows quite clearly the performance of the underlying "engine", the stack,
which is part of every server's doing and has *inherent* impact on the overall
performance and consequently scalability in whatever setup you have (unless the
setup relies on some underperforming techniques). That's what it is.
Yes - tm performance is fine, but from my practical experience external
applications (database lookups, DNS lookups ...) are the real
limitations. Maybe DNS lookups are not a bottleneck anymore in ser (due
to caching), but this also only works for already cached results.
Let me compare with cars. ser is the much more fast car then openser,
but with openser I can drive the shortest route whereas with ser I had
to drive weird routes because of missing functions. Probably this is
getting better with the select framework in Ottendorf - if only I could
understand it.
regards
Klaus
Other than that, I have not really seen enough *facts* in your later off-topic
paragraphs (regarding reliability, stability, airplanes, misleading and
non-applicable suggestions for stateles forwarding) to provide grounds for
a debate with some tangible result -- hope you don't mind I don't join.
You really cannot compare oranges to apples without loss of substance.
I mean doing arbitrarily underperforming network design can perfectly hide
underperforming software but that's not excuse for the latter.
-jiri
At 23:48 21/11/2006, Daniel-Constantin Mierla wrote:
I love such "independent" and "very very useful" tests ... one selected the
versions he liked, latest development of ser with latest stable version of openser, the details
about testing scenarios are pretty limited. However these details are very very insignificant,
really.
What matters is this particular case: what you tested is useless and someone
can better implement a tiny kernel module to perform same job much faster that
will make openser/ser trashed instantly if that is their only usage. More
important are the performances in real world cases. I am not going to do
comparison tests and reveal numbers, I will let you do and hope make the
results available.
I will exemplify with just two common use cases:
A) ITSP where usrloc is required - to get the throughput from your tests one
needs to have over million of online users. Let me know how SER is doing with
loading them, I can bet that it takes several minutes to start (so service down
for a significat time) and lot to lookup a record afterwards, do not forget to
mention required memory. Then we will see if the forwarding throughput is the
bottleneck.
B) carrier - heavy accounting needed - take the latest cvs snapshots and test
it, look at flexibility in same time and see if the balance of throughput and
features is satisfactory. Do not forget that behind database should be
redundant for a reliable accounting storage.
My conclusion and the point I wanted to underline is that forwarding is not the
bottleneck by far and so far in real-world deployments -- or at least nobody
reported in openser mailing lists. Once it will be, for sure there will be
effort and focus to optimize it. I don't even bother to check the scenarios,
environment and test results you had, because makes no sense today.
It is more important to look at the results gave, for example, here by an
independent party:
http://openser.org/pipermail/users/2006-November/007777.html
With a real config and clustering system the performance of a box was 300calls per second -- having at least 5 database accesses!!!. If you need double you can add one more hardware, without extra configuration overhead, just plug and play. And that is stable version of OpenSER since July this year (btw, for those who keep saying that OpenSER does not focus on stability, just check the CVS and see the number of bugs encountered with this release, maybe you can change your opinion), and you can have a safe environment distributed geographically where each hardware can undertake the traffic from the others on the fly. With single box crashing because of different independent reasons (hardware failure, power outages ...) you get no service ... with three boxes you can serve huge number of active subscribers in peak hours and have failover support, so service availability 100%. I am sure most of the people look now how to build reliable platforms that scale very easy and can
be distributed around the world, with a bunch of useful features -- simple
first line replacement is not the business case for VoIP anymore.
We didn't try at OpenSER to get a airplane when we have to drive city streets,
we looked to get feature rich and reliable application for its use cases. I
would propose to have focus on making own applications better than trying to
show the other one is worse.
Cheers,
Daniel
PS. You can use stateless forwarding to get even better results, the usefulness
will be the same.
On 11/21/06 12:30, Jiri Kuthan wrote:
Regarding the technical discussion, here are some hard numbers which show
how SER stack outperforms derivative work. Forwarding throughput is clearly
several times better under stress and consequently, variation of response
delay is rather stable.
http://www.iptel.org/~vku/performance/tm.serXopenser.pulpuk/
-jiri
At 21:16 09/11/2006, Rao Ramaratnamma wrote:
Hi Weiter,
Yeah, I have been trying to limit myself to technical observations too, but the governance aspect is somewhat interesting too as
a hint for future development, even though I guess even this is much more confusing than the technical ones. I have investigated,
both projects have their firms with them that pursue their commercial interests which creates a risk of possibly departing from
the public interest, like with redhat. From this angle they look quite similar. But if any worries me just a little bit more than
openser. Appearance at commercial shows on the "open" side versus technical event on the "net" side if I
take your BSD parallel, marketing "open" webpage accusing "net" version bad, hiding root commerical sponsors
on the "open" webpage, this could be signs for a redhat-like doubleedged sword. Hopefully I am oversensing because I
mean it is natural that everybody has SOME interest, but indisputably folks on both sides have done good work, but same
indisputably m
ore TRANSPARENCY would be helpful for both projects so that users can be less
investigative.
But I agree the technical comparison you suggest will be very useful if not
most useful. This is what I am eventually upto. Anything folks have to tell in
this topic is most welcome like the retransmission timers in subject or user
loading.
rr
disconcerted by the fact that the more I know the more I am confused and
determined to get over the learning curve quickly. also excuse the abuse I
crossposted again but I think cross interrogation is a bit painful but the more
effective :-)
----- Original Message ----
From: Weiter Leiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Kim Il <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, November 9, 2006 1:42:29 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: [Users] TM : retransmission timers
Common user barely has time to meet his boss requirements, rather than playing around with different scenarios, platforms, environments.
I only read one email where Daniel stated that OpenSER now performs a whole much better while loading users from database. SER guys put no figure out yet, neither bare numbers nor comparisons. I'm just really curious to see how both servers perform, that's all.
Even though I must maintain my SER, I kinda like OpenSER's faster releases and developers' responsiveness (that I shamelessly exploit for the common code left there :-), which is pretty much nonexistent with iptel (at least this is the general belief here at OpenSER). But about this I'll probably have to fight on SER's mailing list. I still wish that one day I won't have to compare features; heck, NetSER and FreeSER are still available ;-).
WL.
PS. Maybe regretfully, I haven't seen any iptel booth at von this year, while
OpenSER guys put up a nice show. My congrats.
On 11/9/06, Kim Il <<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I can see what you are hinting at, but I guess that the users are the unbiased party that should do the judgment and not the parties who have something to gain.
cheers
Weiter Leiter <<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
This features comparisons are not to last for too long, some performance comparisons would also be nice. After all, there are plenty of UA-level stacks out there. At least now that both projects get to have stable releases after forking and some core functionality remained shared. I wonder what "unbiased" organization will take up the challenge. :-)
On 11/8/06, Kim Il <<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:
Mike,
this is a really good start and we should collect these things so as to help the
community to take the right choice. I would also suggest that what ever ground breaking
issues we list we stay at the functional level (I do not think anyone is helped by using
a description containing "allowing carrier grade platforms" and similar
marketing phrases). cheers
{truncated because too large}
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