When I had a pint on the Spanish Island of Ibiza I noted that they varied in
size. It was pretty unregulated.
However I did notice (from the stamp on the bottom of the glass) that some
were 570ml and some were 568ml
Of course this contrasts with Ireland and the UK where they are stamped as 1
Pint (with no ml references).
I'm not sure if Spain are"breaking rules" or anything but I don't recollect
anyone complaining.
From: "Philip S Hall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: "U.S. Metric Association" <[email protected]>
Subject: [USMA:34489] Re: Long live the good old British pint! Date: Fri,
16 Sep 2005 09:14:03 +0100
Re: [USMA:34279] Long live the good old British pint!Dear Pat
I have it on reasonably good authority from someone who lives and works in
Brussels that the so called "pint" being served in bars and restaurants in
that area is in fact half litre. They use the word pint for the British
customers. It would also like to mention that if in fact the Belgian
government were to legalise the 568 millilitre pint they would be in breach
of the European Directive on units of measurement. The derogation only
allows selected imperial units for specific purposes in member states that
were using them on 21st April 1971 (if memory serves) which basically means
the UK and Ireland.
Phil Hall
----- Original Message -----
From: Pat Naughtin
To: U.S. Metric Association
Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 5:01 PM
Subject: [USMA:34478] Re: Long live the good old British pint!
on 2005-09-06 22.16, Daniel at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Dear Daniel,
I have interspersed some remarks in blue.
Long live the good old British pint!
This will be quite a difficult for the pint to do since the good old
British pint died as a measuring unit as soon as it was defined as 568
millilitres. (To be clear on this point, I will call the currently legal
568 millilitre pint, the 'metric pint', and I will refer to all of the 'old
pre-metric pints' as old pre-metric pints.) The good old British pint died
as soon as it became the modern metric pint.
September 6 2005 at 10:38 AM
Tony Bennett
Long live the good old British pint! - 05 September 2005
PRESSURE is mounting on Britain to join Europe in using metric
measures, and abolish the mile, pint and acre in favour of kilometres,
litres and hectares.
All of the old miles (nautical UK, USA, Irish, and Swedish) have already
been abolished. All of these and the many other old miles have been
redefined in terms of metric units. For example UK road engineers, who
design and build roads use millimetres for surface thicknesses, metres for
road widths, and kilometres for road lengths, then apply a factor of
1609.344 to place the mileposts at intervals of a metric mile (Note: The
metric mile is based on the same 1959 definitions as metric inches, metric
feet, metric yards, and metric chains). Of course applying these markers at
metric mile intervals simply gives the illusion that some sort of old
pre-metric miles are being used, but this is simply an illusion -- the
engineers know better.
The UK Government has been reminded by the European Commission of its
legal requirements to set a date to convert into metric measures with the
rest of Europe.
To an outsider like me, here in Australia, the European Commission is
simply asking the government of the UK to be honest with the citizens of
Europe when they communicate in measuring terms. As a side issue, they are
possibly also politely suggesting that it might be a good idea for the UK
to be honest with their own citizens as well.
But Tom Wise, MEP for the UK Independence Party in the Eastern
Region, is fighting to keep the imperial system of measurements.
Metrication is a done deal. It's over. It's finished. But it is still
hidden in some activities in the UK.
The UK is now, and has been for quite a while a fully metric country. It
is only the hiding of this fact from the public that the present debate
continues. If Tom Wise wants to reinstate imperial measures he will have to
be honest enough to publicly state that he wants to throw out the entire
measuring infrastructure currently relied on by the UK. For example the
currently used metric inch will have to go and this will need to be
replaced by (yet another) definition of an inch together with another
government infrastructure department to support this new 'old pre-metric
inch (and the new 'old pre-metric foot', new 'old pre-metric yard', and the
new 'old pre-metric chain).
He says it is ridiculous that soon we may not be able to order a pint
of beer.
This is, of course, absolute nonsense. You can order a pint of beer
anytime you like. Of course, whether you get a pint of beer is entirely
another matter.
Lobbyists from the beverage industry long ago (perhaps 1824 when the
imperial pint was invented) lobbied governments to make sure that when
anyone ordered a pint, they got somewhat less than a pint. This was
achieved by writing into law the idea that a pint could be served in a pint
container, that is, a container that could hold, to the brim, a pint of
liquid. But beer is not liquid; it is liquid plus froth and beer drinkers
have long been cheated of a portion (about 10 % of each beer). In the good
old days, they were cheated out of about 2 ounces in each pint, and, with
the metric pint of 568 millilitres, they are routinely served about 500
millilitres of beer in each pint they order.
If Tom Wise wants to use the word 'pint' when he next orders a beer he
might be well advised to consider the Lewis Carroll quotation: 'When I use
a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what
I choose it to mean - neither more nor less.' However if Tom Wise uses the
word, pint, it will almost always be less.
"The British Government has now passed a law saying even the mention
of imperial measurements - pounds and ounces - will be illegal by 2009",
he said.
We should note here the differences between the words that were used as
old pre-metric measures and the same words that are now defined in law. The
old pre-metric imperial pint is no longer legal for trade in the UK and to
imply that it is, is quite a strange thing for a politician to do.
"It is nonsense. Pubs will have to replace all the glasses which will
cost a fortune.
Well, he got the first bit right -- It is nonsense -- to suggest that
glasses will have to be replaced. The simple solution that would be made by
an honest politician and an honest government, who were intending to be
open and honest with their electorates, would simply require that glasses
be marked at the 500 millilitre level. The only change necessary is to
require an honesty mark on the side of the glass and this could be phased
in over as glass breakages occurred.
There would be no need to change the size of the size of the glass from
its present legal size of 568 millilitres; there would be no need to change
glass making machinery; there would be no need to change glass washing
machinery. The only need for change would be to change from a long well
established dishonest mindset to a mindset that was open, honest, and fair
to British beer drinkers, and to put a small honesty mark on the side of
each glass.
"In the closest pub to Brussels parliament you can ask for a pint and
still get one.
Of course you can ask for a pint, but what you get will be legally
determined by the publican, by the local trade authorities, and by the
Belgian government, and all of these operate in metric units. However,
these combined forces probably ensure that if you ask for a pint in
Brussels there is a good chance that you might actually get 568 millilitres
of beer. Note that this is not the case in Britain where, I believe, that
in about 95 % of pubs if you order a pint of beer you will get somewhat
less than the metric pint of 568 millilitres.
"I don't go in pubs much, but I may make a point of going into a pub
just to order a pint.
It might be a good idea to also measure how much you are served when you
ask for a pint. And then check whether there is more or less honesty in
beer selling in Belgium as there is in the UK.
"There is no cause to go metric. It is another excuse to rip us off.
They will have to put the prices up to cover costs, and we will foot the
bill for that.
How much does honesty cost? Might I respectfully suggest that honesty
costs a lot less than the dishonesty that you are promoting with its
attendant obfuscation and confusion. Estimates of the cost of the UK using
part metric and part old pre-metric measures vary, but a conservative
estimate of what the confusion caused by multiple measuring methods is
costing the UK is about 15 % of GDP. This would make the cost to the UK of
not being fully metric about 150 billion British pounds per year (£976 331
361 x 0.15 using 2004 estimates). Let me stress that this is an annual loss
of 150 billion British pounds.
"If you order a litre of beer you will get drunk quicker but you might
not even be able to carry the glass!"
As you said earlier, I don't go in pubs much, but if you did you would
know that a litre is a very rare size of beer to order anywhere in the
world. Probably the most common size is the half litre or 500 millilitres.
Even in the UK when people order a 'pint of beer, please' they actually
receive close to 500 mL of beer.
It is another excuse to rip us off. This is fantasy land.
As I think I have made clear, when anyone orders a pint of beer in an
English pub they are almost always ripped off. This has been going on since
the beverage industry lobbied the 'pint to the brim' rule through
government legislation and regulation. I presume that when you contemplate
the patience of British drinkers tolerating this situation for generations
you are referring to the UK as a fantasy land.
Mr Wise has now written to the European Commission to find out who is
following up the demand for change. Soon we won't be able to ask for a
pint of milk or five pounds of potatoes.
"This is pure fantasy land."
There will be no change. In the future, as now, when you ask for a pint
of milk you will receive 568 mL as this is the legal UK definition of a
pint of milk. Similarly, your pound of potatoes will be supplied to you as
about 454 grams and this will be weighed on legal scales that are now
required to measure using metric units.
There will be no change to this in future, the only change being that
the supplier will have to be more open, honest, and transparent with their
customers and sadly this does not come naturally to many traders, and to
some politicians.
It may trouble you that you are getting a metric pint instead of an old
pre-metric pint (or a metric pound instead of an old pre-metric pound) but
as I said previously, metrication is a done deal; it is over; it is
finished. All you can do is get with it, get over it, and then get on with
it.
The scrapping of pounds and ounces in shops caused widespread
resentment.
Pounds and ounces were not scrapped in shops. If any customer who
ordered a pound of sausages in a butcher's shop since 1965 was refused
service by the butcher, I have yet to hear of it. The fact is that honest
metric measuring instruments were required to replace all of the old
imperial ones as they wore out. I am sure that if, you as an old man,
ordered a pound of cheese in a delicatessen in 20 years time, you will be
supplied with 454 grams, just as you would be supplied now.
Be aware that what you are fighting against is the change in language
that occurs when some words are no longer relevant, just as you no longer
measure using the biblical words bath or cubit because these were replaced
long ago.
The danger is that in publicly regretting the loss of some words, or the
lesser use of these words, you are also openly attacking the ideas ands
concepts behind a fair, honest, and open system of measurement. I can only
hope that you do so in ignorance of the long history and well developed
procedures of modern metrology.
Neil Herron, of the Metric Martyrs Defence Fund, said: "Any
government that tries to introduce legislation to remove the British
working man's pint will be committing political suicide.
"People won't put up with it and there would be mass demands to leave
the European Union".
As I said earlier, it is a long time since there has been such a thing
as British working man's pint. Sure, many have ordered a pint, but few have
received one. If Neil Herron is unaware of this common everyday deception,
he should get out to the pub more often and observe what actually happens
when anyone orders a 'British working man's pint' please.
Britain promised to introduce metric measurements in 1979, but was
given a 'derogation' allowing it to delay implementation of some if the
changes.
The country's failure to propose a deadline is viewed in Brussels as
a breach of the spirit of its commitments.
The folk in Brussels are probably right in thinking that Britain is
playing strange delaying games. After all 26 years does seem a trifle
tardy.
[First appeared in the Cambridge Evening News]
