John
You appear to agree with my point. On a warning sign, "100 m" is never likely
to mean miles.
Now, I don't know about the US, where signs like "San Francisco 250 m" may be
common("m" meaning "miles" in this instance), but there is no current legal UK
sign that would require use of a 3 digit number to mean miles.
And if you accept that fact as being true, you negate the "confusion" argument
put forward by anti-metric campaigners.
With regard to the "no right turn sign", the word "miles" should be written out
in full. If ARM were a serious road safety organisation, they would oppose
incorrect imperial signage too. It's telling that they don't.
--- On Mon, 9/3/09, John Frewen-Lord <[email protected]> wrote:
From: John Frewen-Lord <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [USMA:43539] Re: Jerry's questions regarding "imperial" fuel &
fish sales in the UK.
To: [email protected], "U.S. Metric Association" <[email protected]>
Date: Monday, 9 March, 2009, 8:09 AM
I managed to find a picture I took of the metric pedestrian sign, attached.
Taken in very poor light conditions on a camera phone, so apologies for the
poor quality. But it is definitely metric! And, no, I didn't think it meant
miles - it's actually the other way round, it's the 'No Right Turn for 10 m'
sign which has me confused, as I still (?) think in metric on the roads.
----- Original Message -----
From: Ken Cooper
To: U.S. Metric Association
Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 9:34 PM
Subject: [USMA:43539] Re: Jerry's questions regarding "imperial" fuel & fish
sales in the UK.
The "pedestrian crossing 100 m" sign is definitely unlawful. Some people would
report it to the authorities simply for being metric.
One question though - when you saw it, were you confused by it? Did you think
it meant miles?
Btw, I strongly suspect that the "No right turn for 10 m" sign is unlawful too.
I'm pretty sure you're not allowed to abbreviate "miles" on signs like this.
I'll bet that someone that would report the metric sign wouldn't bother
reporting this one though!
--- On Sun, 3/8/09, John Frewen-Lord <[email protected]> wrote:
From: John Frewen-Lord <[email protected]>
Subject: [USMA:43516] Re: Jerry's questions regarding "imperial" fuel & fish
sales in the UK.
To: "U.S. Metric Association" <[email protected]>
Date: Sunday, March 8, 2009, 6:30 PM
#yiv554778723 #yiv1688625907 .hmmessage P {
PADDING-RIGHT:0px;PADDING-LEFT:0px;PADDING-BOTTOM:0px;MARGIN:0px;PADDING-TOP:0px;}
#yiv554778723 #yiv1688625907 {
FONT-SIZE:10pt;FONT-FAMILY:Verdana;}
The use of 'm' to mean miles in the UK has long been the butt of many jokes
(and rightly so). I remember reading a piece in Road and Track back in the
1990s about a visit the editor and his wife took to the UK, and even he
commented on it (alongside all the usual stuff about driving on the 'wrong'
side, negotiating roundabouts, etc).
In regards to where it might be found, it is primarily on motorways, but, as
has been shown earlier today, also on non-motorways. There is a stretch of
road that I travel on regularly that is dual carriageway ( 4 lane divided
highway in North American parlance with a double Armco central median barrier),
where all the previously possible right turns (what would be a left turn if
driving on the right) have been closed off for a length of 10 miles. The sign
says quite clearly: No Right Turn for Next 10 m . Ironically, a bit further on
(after the road narrows to two lanes not divided) is a crosswalk sign that
shows the standard pictogram of a pedestrian, and underneath it says: 100 m
ahead (this is unusual in the UK and I am not sure if it is even legal).
A bit schitzophrenic, and a source of confusion I am sure to drivers of cars
and trucks from mainland Europe.
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Trusten
To: U.S. Metric Association
Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 6:08 PM
Subject: [USMA:43515] Re: Jerry's questions regarding "imperial" fuel & fish
sales in the UK.
I was aware that the UK uses "m" to mean miles, but, wow! When I first saw
this blue "services" sign photo, I wondered how much warning a six-meters-ahead
sign was intended to give. I'd prefer at least a kilometer's warning (grin).
How does this type of sign affect travelers at the Northern Ireland/Ireland
border? I know common sense prevails, but there may be some confusion,
especially among those visitors who may not be familiar with imperial units at
all.
The lower case "m" is the SI symbol for "meter." That's what I know.
----- Original Message -----
From: Stephen Humphreys
To: U.S. Metric Association
Sent: 08 March, 2009 12:57
Subject: [USMA:43512] Re: Jerry's questions regarding "imperial" fuel & fish
sales in the UK.
Do you mean like this one? (attached)
Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 09:14:15 -0700
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [USMA:43468] Re: Jerry's questions regarding "imperial" fuel &
fish sales in the UK.
To: [email protected]; [email protected]
#yiv554778723 #yiv1688625907 .ExternalClass DIV
{}
Obviously not as common as you imagine it to be. As noted it exists on older
signs and is not used when newer signs are installed. The m is the legal
symbol for the meter and since the UK is now a predominately metric country
they will come into conformity but only as time and funds permit.
Your insistence on wanting to see m displayed for miles is your personal
attempt to distort understanding of the metric system. It isn't working as m
for meters is legal and m for miles is not.
Jerry
From: Stephen Humphreys <[email protected]>
To: U.S. Metric Association <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, March 7, 2009 6:50:20 PM
Subject: [USMA:43468] Re: Jerry's questions regarding "imperial" fuel & fish
sales in the UK.
'm' for miles is commonplace on UK motorways as I have already described
Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 14:48:42 -0800
From: [email protected]
Subject: [USMA:43464] Re: Jerry's questions regarding "imperial" fuel & fish
sales in the UK.
To: [email protected]
Yes Carleton
I could show you pictures of signs that are currently out there that are over
100 years old, but (unlike Stephen), I wouldn't imply that those signs comply
with current requirements.
There's an old bottle of Bells for sale in my local specialist Scotch Whisky
shop. It's marked only in imperial, because it complied with the W&M
requrements in force in 1952 when it was packed.
Shall I claim that this shows that imperial is in common use to sell whisky in
my local area? It's exactly the same principle as using obsolete signs to claim
that "m for miles" is in common use on UK roads.
--- On Sat, 3/7/09, Carleton MacDonald <[email protected]> wrote:
From: Carleton MacDonald <[email protected]>
Subject: [USMA:43462] Re: Jerry's questions regarding "imperial" fuel & fish
sales in the UK.
To: "U.S. Metric Association" <[email protected]>
Date: Saturday, March 7, 2009, 10:16 PM
They are current, because they are currently out there (it costs a lot to
replace signs – we have some here in Maryland that are over thirty years old,
and people can still find their way). I would guess that if the sign has to be
replaced, it would be updated.
Wish the bickering would go down a bit.
Carleton
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of
Ken Cooper
Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 15:47
To: U.S. Metric Association
Subject: [USMA:43453] Re: Jerry's questions regarding "imperial" fuel & fish
sales in the UK.
And here's a perfect example of how Stephen uses half truths to deceive.
1) He states "Motorway signs also show "Town name XX m" - eg "London 23 m"*
Apart from the fact that the motorway network is a tiny part of the UK total
road length (see below), he fails to state that the "London 23 m" signs are not
currently prescribed in the Traffic Signs Regulations & General Directions. Any
sign in this form is an obsolete old sign & does not conform to current UK law
(just like the old milestones or "20 cwt" signs you occasionally see)
But that doesn't stop him claiming these signs are current.
2) He also states "There are signs that say "Services XX m"
Again, this is not the full story, Signs in this form only appear on motorways.
Has Stephen ever pointed out that there are only around 3500 km (2200 miles) of
motorway in the entire UK? That's approximately 1% of the road network.
3) He also states "And there are park (A big "P") signs that have X m"
This is untrue. These signs state "X miles". No abbreviation is used.
4) Finally, Stephen said "This is on top of the ones you remember (the 1 m and
1/2 m countdown signs). Sometimes those countdown signs might have 1/4 m or
1/3 m but the vast majority are as you state they are."
Yes. You will see "m" as an abbreviation for miles on grade seperated
junctions. That's what I said in the first place.
Can I ask what you intended by your post Stephen? The only bit that wasn't
untrue or misleading was when you agreed with my point on grade-seperated
junctions.
I also notice, Stephen, that a lot of your post related to motorway signage.. I
wonder why you didn't mention the following signs. Don't you pass them
occasionally (like every 100 metres or so)? I do..
http://www.cbrd.co.uk/indepth/mileagesigns/ - don't you love the ironic title
of the webpage, seeing that it's all about kilometre signs?
--- On Sat, 3/7/09, Stephen Humphreys <[email protected]> wrote:
From: Stephen Humphreys <[email protected]>
Subject: [USMA:43425] Re: Jerry's questions regarding "imperial" fuel & fish
sales in the UK.
To: "U.S. Metric Association" <[email protected]>
Date: Saturday, March 7, 2009, 5:14 PM
Carlton - Motorway signs also show "Town name XX m" - eg "London 23 m"
Also there are signs that say "Services XX m"
And there are park (A big "P") signs that have X m
This is on top of the ones you remember (the 1 m and 1/2 m countdown signs)..
Sometimes those countdown signs might have 1/4 m or 1/3 m but the vast majority
are as you state they are.
Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 09:05:44 -0800
From: [email protected]
Subject: [USMA:43421] Re: Jerry's questions regarding "imperial" fuel & fish
sales in the UK..
To: [email protected]
Carleton
As John Frewen-Lord states, you will see imperial measurement used for the
majority of UK roadsigns.
Normally, official signs giving distances don't use an abbreviation for miles.
A sign would say "York 10" rather than "York 10 m", York 10 mi" or "York 10
miles"
You obviously spotted one of the "m means miles" signs..
"m" is also used to mean metres on some UK road-signs. These signs are mainly
confined to signs showing restricted heights or widths & are also accompanied
by imperial measurements in feet/inches.
--- On Sat, 3/7/09, Carleton MacDonald <[email protected]> wrote:
From: Carleton MacDonald <[email protected]>
Subject: [USMA:43413] Re: Jerry's questions regarding "imperial" fuel & fish
sales in the UK.
To: "U.S. Metric Association" <[email protected]>
Date: Saturday, March 7, 2009, 4:32 PM
When I was in the UK in June 2005 our friend took us driving from Southsea to
Stonehenge. On the motorway the distance to the next exit was noted on the
sign as “1 m”. Funny, even though that looked metric, I didn’t see it all that
close.
Carleton
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of
John Frewen-Lord
Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 10:53
To: U.S. Metric Association
Subject: [USMA:43410] Re: Jerry's questions regarding "imperial" fuel & fish
sales in the UK.
My local Tesco in Grimsby weighs ONLY in metric units for trade purposes (at
the deli and fish counters primarily). Yes, the customer-use weigh scales are
dual marked, with metric as the primary (outer) scale, and imperial as the
secondary (inner) scale. All our other local supermarkets (Morrisons,
Sainsbury's, ASDA, Somerfield) only retail weigh products in metric, this is
the law. Annoyingly, some counter staff insist on converting it to imperial
for me (even when I have asked for it in metric), but that is sporadic.
Also to confirm - all fuel, whether petrol (gasoline) and diesel at the pumps,
or the fuel oil we buy for our heating system, is sold in liters ONLY. Even
aircraft fuel is calibrated in liters (a friend of mine works at my local
airport). I have NEVER seen automotive fuel in other than metric. Same for
Canada - since conversion in 1978, all gasoline can be dispensed ONLY in liters.
The UK is primarily metric (e.g. the laptop computer I am typing this out on is
shown as weighing 3.5 kg, no imperial equivalent), and officially all
government is metric, even though there is some backsliding.. Only the road
signage, and pints in the pub, are not metric. These are the sole areas that
those who resist metric conversion are holding out on.
----- Original Message -----
From: Ken Cooper
To: U.S. Metric Association
Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 2:23 PM
Subject: [USMA:43401] Jerry's questions regarding "imperial" fuel & fish sales
in the UK.
As you suggest, Jerry, one individual on one website seems to believe that
liquid fuel in the UK is dispensed in "air miles" rather than litres. I think
that his views can safely be ignored.
I can assure you that UK law still states that litres MUST be used whenever
liquid fuels are sold by retail in the UK.
My view of the law is backed up by my own experiences in filling my car at
pumps in dozens of filling stations throughout the UK, and in passing hundreds
of other filling stations with large roadside price displays marked solely with
prices per litre.
UK petrol pumps normally have 3 active displays at any one time. One tells the
price per litre, one tells the number of litres dispensed and one tells the
total price to pay. Some pumps omit the price per litre & a few omit the price
to pay.
In every case, however, there is a requirement that the pump shows the number
of litres dispensed.
I'm sure that other UK contributors to this site can confirm my findings.
With regard to Tesco's supposed return to using imperial scales at their fish
counter in their Loudwater store, I would point out that this information is
provided by the same individual on the same website I mention above. This tine,
he makes a claim that Tesco are using dual scales for trade purposes in this
store.
Unfortunately, he refuses to provide any meaningful detail about the scales,
making it impossible to verify whether he is telling the truth or not. I've
never been in the Loudwater Tesco, so I cannot comment on that particular store.
However, during the last 12 months or so, I have visited Tesco stores in Dundee
(4), Edinburgh (3), Glasgow (2), Helensburgh (2), Arbroath, Ayr,
Budapest(non-UK!), Campbeltown, Dumbarton, Dublin(non-UK!), Inverness,
Lochgilphead, London, Oban, Perth & Stirling.
None of these stores use dual-marked weighing equipment for any trade purposes
(a few have dual non-trade customer checkweighers in the F&V aisle). Each and
every one of those stores had weighing and/or measuring equipment in use for
trade. Without exception, the equipment indicated in metric units only.
Again, I would ask other UK contributors to post their experiences in Tesco
stores. I'm pretty sure that only one person will claim to have seen such a
scale, yet will prove to be surprisingly reluctant (or perhaps unable) to
provide any real proof that it exists.
--- On Sat, 3/7/09, Jeremiah MacGregor <[email protected]> wrote:
From: Jeremiah MacGregor <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [USMA:43385] Re: USC units spread to the UK - and no-one notices!
To: [email protected], "U.S. Metric Association" <[email protected]>
Date: Saturday, March 7, 2009, 1:48 AM
Ken,
I've heard a rumor recently that the UK no longer uses the liter for dispensing
gasoline but has instead switched to a new unit called "air miles". Can you
provide some further information on this?
I also understand that some super markets are now re-introducing scales in
pound units that are being used to weigh goods asked for by customers. I
believe that a Tesco located in the town of Loudwater has already changed
over. Can you provide some further information on this reversion?
Jerry
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