"Other John" here. In the US, the issue would not arise as "MI" is the accepted abbreviation for miles (although also for the State of Michigan) so it would be SAN FRANCISCO 250 MI. A lower case exception is made only for metric symbols. Miles can also be spelled in full or omitted.
You can Google MUTCD and get access to all our standard signage. It specifies both Customary and metric sign size as well as Customary and metric sign content. However, many States have not adopted metric signage, and few use it even if technically "allowed." --- On Mon, 3/9/09, Ken Cooper <[email protected]> wrote: > From: Ken Cooper <[email protected]> > Subject: [USMA:43605] Re: Jerry's questions regarding "imperial" fuel & fish > sales in the UK. > To: "U.S. Metric Association" <[email protected]> > Date: Monday, March 9, 2009, 6:16 PM > John > > You appear to agree with my point. On a warning sign, > "100 m" is never likely to mean miles. > > Now, I don't know about the US, where signs like > "San Francisco 250 m" may be common("m" > meaning "miles" in this instance), but there is no > current legal UK sign that would require use of a 3 digit > number to mean miles. > > And if you accept that fact as being true, you negate the > "confusion" argument put forward by anti-metric > campaigners. > > With regard to the "no right turn sign", the word > "miles" should be written out in full. If ARM were > a serious road safety organisation, they would oppose > incorrect imperial signage too. It's telling that they > don't. > > > > --- On Mon, 9/3/09, John Frewen-Lord > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > From: John Frewen-Lord <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [USMA:43539] Re: Jerry's questions > regarding "imperial" fuel & fish sales in the > UK. > To: [email protected], "U.S. Metric > Association" <[email protected]> > Date: Monday, 9 March, 2009, 8:09 AM > > > > I managed to find a picture I took of the metric pedestrian > sign, attached. Taken in very poor light conditions on a > camera phone, so apologies for the poor quality. But it is > definitely metric! And, no, I didn't think it meant > miles - it's actually the other way round, it's the > 'No Right Turn for 10 m' sign which has me confused, > as I still (?) think in metric on the roads. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ken Cooper > To: U.S. Metric Association > Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 9:34 PM > Subject: [USMA:43539] Re: Jerry's questions regarding > "imperial" fuel & fish sales in the UK. > > > > > > > The "pedestrian crossing 100 m" sign is > definitely unlawful. Some people would report it to the > authorities simply for being metric. > > One question though - when you saw it, were you confused by > it? Did you think it meant miles? > > Btw, I strongly suspect that the "No right turn for 10 > m" sign is unlawful too. I'm pretty > sure you're not allowed to abbreviate "miles" > on signs like this. > > I'll bet that someone that would report the metric sign > wouldn't bother reporting this one though! > > --- On Sun, 3/8/09, John Frewen-Lord > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > From: John Frewen-Lord <[email protected]> > Subject: [USMA:43516] Re: Jerry's questions regarding > "imperial" fuel & fish sales in the UK. > To: "U.S. Metric Association" > <[email protected]> > Date: Sunday, March 8, 2009, 6:30 PM > > > > #yiv554778723 #yiv1688625907 .hmmessage P { > PADDING-RIGHT:0px;PADDING-LEFT:0px;PADDING-BOTTOM:0px;MARGIN:0px;PADDING-TOP:0px;} > #yiv554778723 #yiv1688625907 { > FONT-SIZE:10pt;FONT-FAMILY:Verdana;} > > > The use of 'm' to mean miles in the UK has long > been the butt of many jokes (and rightly so). I remember > reading a piece in Road and Track back in the 1990s about a > visit the editor and his wife took to the UK, and even he > commented on it (alongside all the usual stuff about driving > on the 'wrong' side, negotiating roundabouts, > etc). > > In regards to where it might be found, it is primarily on > motorways, but, as has been shown earlier today, also on > non-motorways. There is a stretch of road that I travel > on regularly that is dual carriageway ( 4 lane divided > highway in North American parlance with a double Armco > central median barrier), where all the previously possible > right turns (what would be a left turn if driving on the > right) have been closed off for a length of 10 miles. The > sign says quite clearly: No Right Turn for Next 10 m . > Ironically, a bit further on (after the road narrows to two > lanes not divided) is a crosswalk sign that shows the > standard pictogram of a pedestrian, and underneath it says: > 100 m ahead (this is unusual in the UK and I am not sure if > it is even legal). > > A bit schitzophrenic, and a source of confusion I am sure > to drivers of cars and trucks from mainland Europe. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Paul Trusten > To: U.S. Metric Association > Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 6:08 PM > Subject: [USMA:43515] Re: Jerry's questions regarding > "imperial" fuel & fish sales in the UK. > > > I was aware that the UK uses "m" to mean miles, > but, wow! When I first saw this blue "services" > sign photo, I wondered how much warning a six-meters-ahead > sign was intended to give. I'd prefer at least a > kilometer's warning (grin). How does this type of sign > affect travelers at the Northern Ireland/Ireland border? I > know common sense prevails, but there may be some confusion, > especially among those visitors who may not be familiar with > imperial units at all. > > The lower case "m" is the SI symbol for > "meter." That's what I know. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Stephen Humphreys > To: U.S. Metric Association > Sent: 08 March, 2009 12:57 > Subject: [USMA:43512] Re: Jerry's questions regarding > "imperial" fuel & fish sales in the UK. > > Do you mean like this one? (attached) > > > > Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 09:14:15 -0700 > From: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [USMA:43468] Re: Jerry's questions > regarding "imperial" fuel & fish sales in the > UK. > To: [email protected]; [email protected] > > > > #yiv554778723 #yiv1688625907 .ExternalClass DIV > {} > > > > Obviously not as common as you imagine it to be. As noted > it exists on older signs and is not used when newer signs > are installed. The m is the legal symbol for the meter and > since the UK is now a predominately metric country they will > come into conformity but only as time and funds permit. > > Your insistence on wanting to see m displayed for miles is > your personal attempt to distort understanding of the metric > system. It isn't working as m for meters is legal and > m for miles is not. > > Jerry > > > > > > From: Stephen Humphreys <[email protected]> > To: U.S. Metric Association <[email protected]> > Sent: Saturday, March 7, 2009 6:50:20 PM > Subject: [USMA:43468] Re: Jerry's questions regarding > "imperial" fuel & fish sales in the UK. > > 'm' for miles is commonplace on UK motorways as I > have already described > > > > Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 14:48:42 -0800 > From: [email protected] > Subject: [USMA:43464] Re: Jerry's questions regarding > "imperial" fuel & fish sales in the UK. > To: [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > Yes Carleton > > I could show you pictures of signs that are currently out > there that are over 100 years old, but (unlike Stephen), I > wouldn't imply that those signs comply with current > requirements. > > There's an old bottle of Bells for sale in my local > specialist Scotch Whisky shop. It's marked only in > imperial, because it complied with the W&M requrements > in force in 1952 when it was packed. > > Shall I claim that this shows that imperial is in common > use to sell whisky in my local area? It's exactly the > same principle as using obsolete signs to claim that "m > for miles" is in common use on UK roads. > > --- On Sat, 3/7/09, Carleton MacDonald > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > From: Carleton MacDonald <[email protected]> > Subject: [USMA:43462] Re: Jerry's questions regarding > "imperial" fuel & fish sales in the UK. > To: "U.S. Metric Association" > <[email protected]> > Date: Saturday, March 7, 2009, 10:16 PM > > > > > They are current, because they are currently out there (it > costs a lot to replace signs – we have some here in > Maryland that are over thirty years old, and people can > still find their way). I would guess that if the sign has > to be replaced, it would be updated. > > > > Wish the bickering would go down a bit. > > > > Carleton > > > > > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ken Cooper > Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 15:47 > To: U.S. Metric Association > Subject: [USMA:43453] Re: Jerry's questions regarding > "imperial" fuel & fish sales in the UK. > > > > > > > > > And here's a perfect example of how Stephen uses half > truths to deceive. > > > > > > 1) He states "Motorway signs also show "Town name > XX m" - eg "London 23 m"* > > > > > > Apart from the fact that the motorway network is a tiny > part of the UK total road length (see below), he fails to > state that the "London 23 m" signs are not > currently prescribed in the Traffic Signs Regulations & > General Directions. Any sign in this form is an obsolete old > sign & does not conform to current UK law (just like the > old milestones or "20 cwt" signs you occasionally > see) > > > > > > But that doesn't stop him claiming these signs are > current. > > > > > > 2) He also states "There are signs that say > "Services XX m" > > > > > > Again, this is not the full story, Signs in this form only > appear on motorways. Has Stephen ever pointed out > that there are only around 3500 km (2200 miles) of motorway > in the entire UK? That's approximately 1% of the road > network. > > > > > > 3) He also states "And there are park (A big > "P") signs that have X m" > > > > > > This is untrue. These signs state "X miles". No > abbreviation is used. > > > > > > 4) Finally, Stephen said "This is on top of the ones > you remember (the 1 m and 1/2 m countdown signs). > Sometimes those countdown signs might have 1/4 m or 1/3 m > but the vast majority are as you state they are." > > > > > > Yes. You will see "m" as an abbreviation for > miles on grade seperated junctions. That's what I said > in the first place. > > > > > > Can I ask what you intended by your post Stephen? The only > bit that wasn't untrue or misleading was when you agreed > with my point on grade-seperated junctions. > > > > > > I also notice, Stephen, that a lot of your post related to > motorway signage.. I wonder why you didn't mention the > following signs. Don't you pass them occasionally (like > every 100 metres or so)? I do.. > > > > > > http://www.cbrd.co.uk/indepth/mileagesigns/ - don't > you love the ironic title of the webpage, seeing that > it's all about kilometre signs? > > > > > --- On Sat, 3/7/09, Stephen Humphreys > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > From: Stephen Humphreys <[email protected]> > Subject: [USMA:43425] Re: Jerry's questions regarding > "imperial" fuel & fish sales in the UK. > To: "U.S. Metric Association" > <[email protected]> > Date: Saturday, March 7, 2009, 5:14 PM > > Carlton - Motorway signs also show "Town name XX > m" - eg "London 23 m" > > > Also there are signs that say "Services XX m" > > > And there are park (A big "P") signs that have X > m > > This is on top of the ones you remember (the 1 m and 1/2 m > countdown signs).. Sometimes those countdown signs might > have 1/4 m or 1/3 m but the vast majority are as you state > they are. > > > > > Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 09:05:44 -0800 > From: [email protected] > Subject: [USMA:43421] Re: Jerry's questions regarding > "imperial" fuel & fish sales in the UK.. > To: [email protected] > > > > > > > Carleton > > > > > > As John Frewen-Lord states, you will see imperial > measurement used for the majority of UK roadsigns. > > > > > > Normally, official signs giving distances don't use an > abbreviation for miles. A sign would say "York 10" > rather than "York 10 m", York 10 mi" or > "York 10 miles" > > > > > > You obviously spotted one of the "m means miles" > signs.. > > > > > > "m" is also used to mean metres on some UK > road-signs. These signs are mainly confined to signs showing > restricted heights or widths & are also accompanied by > imperial measurements in feet/inches. > > --- On Sat, 3/7/09, Carleton MacDonald > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > From: Carleton MacDonald <[email protected]> > Subject: [USMA:43413] Re: Jerry's questions regarding > "imperial" fuel & fish sales in the UK. > To: "U.S. Metric Association" > <[email protected]> > Date: Saturday, March 7, 2009, 4:32 PM > > > > When I was in the UK in June 2005 our friend took us > driving from Southsea to Stonehenge. On the motorway the > distance to the next exit was noted on the sign as “1 > m”. Funny, even though that looked metric, I didn’t > see it all that close. > > > > Carleton > > > > > > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of John > Frewen-Lord > Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 10:53 > To: U.S. Metric Association > Subject: [USMA:43410] Re: Jerry's questions regarding > "imperial" fuel & fish sales in the UK. > > > > > My local Tesco in Grimsby weighs ONLY in metric units for > trade purposes (at the deli and fish counters primarily). > Yes, the customer-use weigh scales are dual marked, with > metric as the primary (outer) scale, and imperial as the > secondary (inner) scale. All our other local supermarkets > (Morrisons, Sainsbury's, ASDA, Somerfield) only retail > weigh products in metric, this is the law. Annoyingly, > some counter staff insist on converting it to imperial for > me (even when I have asked for it in metric), but that is > sporadic. > > > > > > Also to confirm - all fuel, whether petrol (gasoline) and > diesel at the pumps, or the fuel oil we buy for our heating > system, is sold in liters ONLY. Even aircraft fuel is > calibrated in liters (a friend of mine works at my local > airport). I have NEVER seen automotive fuel in other than > metric. Same for Canada - since conversion in 1978, all > gasoline can be dispensed ONLY in liters. > > > > > > The UK is primarily metric (e.g. the laptop computer I am > typing this out on is shown as weighing 3.5 kg, no imperial > equivalent), and officially all government is metric, even > though there is some backsliding.. Only the road signage, > and pints in the pub, are not metric. These are the sole > areas that those who resist metric conversion are holding > out on. > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Ken Cooper > > > To: U.S. Metric Association > > > Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 2:23 PM > > > Subject: [USMA:43401] Jerry's questions regarding > "imperial" fuel & fish sales in the UK. > > > > > > > > > > As you suggest, Jerry, one individual on one website seems > to believe that liquid fuel in the UK is dispensed in > "air miles" rather than litres. I think that his > views can safely be ignored. > > > > > > I can assure you that UK law still states that litres MUST > be used whenever liquid fuels are sold by retail in the UK. > > > > > > My view of the law is backed up by my own experiences in > filling my car at pumps in dozens of filling stations > throughout the UK, and in passing hundreds of other filling > stations with large roadside price displays marked solely > with prices per litre. > > > > > > UK petrol pumps normally have 3 active displays at any one > time. One tells the price per litre, one tells the number of > litres dispensed and one tells the total price to pay. Some > pumps omit the price per litre & a few omit the price to > pay. > > > > > > In every case, however, there is a requirement that the > pump shows the number of litres dispensed. > > > > > > I'm sure that other UK contributors to this site can > confirm my findings. > > > > > > > > > > > > With regard to Tesco's supposed return to using > imperial scales at their fish counter in their Loudwater > store, I would point out that this information is provided > by the same individual on the same website I mention > above. This tine, he makes a claim that Tesco are using > dual scales for trade purposes in this store. > > > > > > Unfortunately, he refuses to provide any meaningful detail > about the scales, making it impossible to verify whether he > is telling the truth or not. I've never been in the > Loudwater Tesco, so I cannot comment on that particular > store. > > > > > > However, during the last 12 months or so, I have visited > Tesco stores in Dundee (4), Edinburgh (3), Glasgow (2), > Helensburgh (2), Arbroath, Ayr, Budapest(non-UK!), > Campbeltown, Dumbarton, Dublin(non-UK!), Inverness, > Lochgilphead, London, Oban, Perth & Stirling. > > > > > > None of these stores use dual-marked weighing equipment for > any trade purposes (a few have dual non-trade customer > checkweighers in the F&V aisle). Each and every one of > those stores had weighing and/or measuring equipment in use > for trade. Without exception, the equipment indicated in > metric units only. > > > > > > Again, I would ask other UK contributors to post their > experiences in Tesco stores. I'm pretty sure that only > one person will claim to have seen such a scale, yet will > prove to be surprisingly reluctant (or perhaps unable) to > provide any real proof that it exists. > > > > > --- On Sat, 3/7/09, Jeremiah MacGregor > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > From: Jeremiah MacGregor > <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [USMA:43385] Re: USC units spread to the UK - > and no-one notices! > To: [email protected], "U.S. Metric > Association" <[email protected]> > Date: Saturday, March 7, 2009, 1:48 AM > > > > > Ken, > > > > > > I've heard a rumor recently that the UK no longer uses > the liter for dispensing gasoline but has instead switched > to a new unit called "air miles". Can you > provide some further information on this? > > > > > > I also understand that some super markets are now > re-introducing scales in pound units that are being used to > weigh goods asked for by customers. I believe that a Tesco > located in the town of Loudwater has already changed over. > Can you provide some further information on this reversion? > > > > > > Jerry > > > > > > > > > > > Share your photos with Windows Live Photos – Free. Try it > Now! > > > > > > > Share your photos with Windows Live Photos – Free. Try it > Now! > > > > Windows Live Hotmail just got better. Find out more!
