Elizabeth, I'm sorry you know I love Kino and appreciate all that you
do but we simply disagree on this (relatively small) issue.
What you just said implies that we are only in the business of
generating immediate profit for rights holders regardless of the
future implications or even our contractual obligations. I can't
reconcile that.
Zeitgeist is not exclusively in the business of selling to educational
institutions and it's not my job to offer rights that we don't have
simply because a customer would like that option available. We sell
our films on iTUNES for personal use, not educational exhibition. It's
a completely different section in the contract.
All kinds of digital streaming sites - Netflix, Amazon, etc. work just
fine with termination dates. I don't see why libraries can't do the
same AT LEAST until we work out the language in our contracts that
allows us to do this with full disclosure to the rights holders.
If we were just an educational company buying lifetime rights would be
a different story. But the pedigree and universality of films that
both Zeitgeist and Kino distribute, in my opinion, require careful
consideration about which rights we attach to our packages in
accordance with our contracts with sales agents.
But I have no doubt you've given this careful consideration on your
end and have come to your decision as I have come to mine and we will
just have to see what the future holds.
I'd very much like to get a group of distributors to talk about this
further, both educational and theatrical, but probably off the
listserv! :)
Ben
Benjamin Crossley-Marra
Zeitgeist Films Ltd.
247 Centre St, 2nd fl
New York, NY 10013
P: 212-274-1989
F: 212-274-1644
http://www.zeitgeistfilms.com
On Mar 16, 2012, at 5:57 PM, Elizabeth Sheldon wrote:
Ben,
If you are 'buying exploitation rights for profit' it implies that
you are in the business of generating revenue for your filmmakers,
which means offering licenses that the customers not only want but
will be requiring; how can a librarian catalog a stream which they
do not have a permanent copy of? Perhaps a library prefers to
archive a digital file on their server rather than the DVD on a
shelf. It is our business as distributors to the educational market
to offer our customers these choices.
And digital formats change all the time. 3 years ago Flash was the
universal standard for streaming. Now it is becoming HTML5 for ios
compatibility. That is a recent change in digital format in this
nascent market. There will be more to come.
I liked Bob's analogy that a digital site license is not analogous
to broadcast, but, as I originally suggested, a download. If
Zeitgeist is selling films on iTunes, you are selling digital copies
for the life of the file.
Have a great weekend everybody.
Best,
Elizabeth
Elizabeth Sheldon
Vice President
Kino Lorber, Inc.
333 W. 39th St., Suite 503
New York, NY 10018
(212) 629-6880
www.kinolorberedu.com
On Mar 16, 2012, at 5:26 PM, Benjamin Crossley-Marra wrote:
Bob,
The likelihood of schools desiring new digital formats after the
stream has been sold is still matter of conjecture at this point.
They sure don't seem to be too interested in Blu Ray.
Due to the nature of (our contracts) at least I do feel obligated
to set a termination date on a digital file which can potentially
be preserved forever.
I also don't particularly agree with the philosophy of just because
there's nothing in the contract that says you can't do it than it's
all right. We are buying exploitation rights for profit and those
rights have an end date. Just because a producer or entity may be
receiving more money from a sale you're making doesn't mean that
they are OK with you doing it. If they are comfortable with a
distributor selling lifetime rights than there's no reason not to
have that in the contract.
This is especially tenuous issue with major foreign sales agents
whose films are released theatrically here. We're talking about
millions of dollars floating around these films of which
distributors are accountable for reporting honestly and accurately.
Ben
Benjamin Crossley-Marra
Zeitgeist Films Ltd.
247 Centre St, 2nd fl
New York, NY 10013
P: 212-274-1989
F: 212-274-1644
http://www.zeitgeistfilms.com
On Mar 16, 2012, at 5:03 PM, Bob Norris wrote:
I'm going to have to disagree. Selling streaming rights for the
life of the digital file to a university is not comparable to a
broadcast sale in perpetuity.
In the former case you are selling to a single entity. Using
Facets as an example, the school could pay $20 for in classroom
face to face use of a DVD. But if they want to stream the school
pays $500. So the producer is the beneficiary of a higher royalty.
And if Facet's license expires and a new distributor picks up the
title they can sell a new digital format to that school. (Believe
me, formats will change.) Plus they can sell to all the other
schools that never purchased the title.
If a distributor sold broadcast rights in perpetuity that would
lock up the whole broadcast market in that territory forever. That
would not be right. The difference is you are selling a right, not
a thing.
iTunes does not place a time limitation on my music downloads of
major recording artists. I don't think video distributors are
required to set an arbitrary termination date on the use of a
particular digital file either. Of course if the producer's
agreement prohibits lifetime sales then Film Ideas would not grant
them.
Respectfully,
Bob
Robert A. Norris
Managing Director
Film Ideas, Inc.
Phone: (847) 419-0255
Email: [email protected]
Web: www.filmideas.com
On Mar 16, 2012, at 2:54 PM, [email protected]
wrote:
1. Re: Facets launches EDU site with streaming rights
(Jessica Rosner)
From: Jessica Rosner <[email protected]>
Date: March 16, 2012 2:52:35 PM CDT
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Videolib] Facets launches EDU site with streaming
rights
Reply-To: [email protected]
Elizabeth
I know we have disagreed on this and I have run this by many
companies
that distribute foreign film in particular and all I have spoken do
not believe their contracts permit the sale of lifetime streaming
if
they for instance have the right to sell downloads to individuals
for
the fixed period on the contract. I believe the closer comparison
is
to a TV sale. Most contracts don't permit a distributor to make a
sale
for a cable, Internet or other broadcast form to that would
permit the
companies broadcast or download the film forever. The rights are
limited by the term of the contract. More specifically I have
directly
asked several European companies about lifetime streaming rights
and
they refused and some of these are the same companies Kino/Lorber
has
films from. I feel very strongly that if these rights were allowed
they should be explicitly included in a contract because you are
not
selling a physical item like a print or a VHS but rights that can
literally never expire in a format that can be used forever.
Since again I have been explicitly told by several major overseas
rights holders that their contract do not include this I think it
would be unfair to have institutions in the middle. Frankly there
have
in fact been a number of cases in which
after a contract expired a rights holder told an institution that a
distributor had no rights to sell a particular item with lifetime
PPR
and they insisted that showings be cancelled and the film never
shown.
It is not common because most large overseas companies have little
knowledge or interest in such things but again this should be
between
distributors and rights holders. Obviously if you believe your
contracts cover this you should make sure the rights holders are
informed and agree to this.
On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 3:01 PM, Elizabeth Sheldon
<[email protected]> wrote:
Dear All,
As a film distribution company who offers DSL with streaming
rights 'for the life of the digital file,' we consider a DSL
analogous to a download in the consumer market. If one of our
customers wants to purchase a DVD with or without PPR, great; if
they would prefer the digital file with a streaming license, we
will supply it. We think that a DSL is a premium license and
this is reflected in our pricing, which is very close to Facets
pricing.
Just as when we sell a DVD with PPR to a school, when our
original agreement expires with the filmmaker, we do not ask our
librarian customers to return the DVDs because the PPR license
has not expired. The rights we sell during the term continue
beyond the term of our original license with a filmmaker. If in
our agreements there is specific language that prohibits us from
selling either PPR or DSL, it is not available from our site: www.kinolorberedu.com
.
However, what we do frown upon is encoding from a DVD without
purchasing the DSL. Now that irritates me.
Best,
Elizabeth
Elizabeth Sheldon
Vice President
Kino Lorber, Inc.
333 W. 39th St., Suite 503
New York, NY 10018
(212) 629-6880
www.kinolorberedu.com
VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion
of issues relating to the selection, evaluation,
acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of
current and evolving video formats in libraries and related
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working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of
communication between libraries,educational institutions, and
video producers and distributors.
VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion
of issues relating to the selection, evaluation,
acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current
and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions.
It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool
for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between
libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and
distributors.
VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
issues relating to the selection, evaluation,
acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current
and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It
is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for
video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between
libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and
distributors.
VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues
relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control,
preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and
related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective
working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication
between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and
distributors.
