Well I guess 15th and early 16th century strumming practice is hard to
find and I think we have to do what m'learned friends often rely on;
the balance of probabilities.
In this case as we have seen, there is clear evidence for strumming
(and plucking) the 4 course guitar in printed sources c. 1550 which I
suggest, m'lud, means that the practice was well established by then
thus taking us back to the early 16th century. Before that I really
have no opinion since I'm not tremendously keen on conjectural
reconstructions (having heard many most unlikely ones in a very 'new
age' style with much percussion and the rest).
In the absence of direct evidence (ie music notated in earlier sources)
perhaps, members of the jury, we need to reflect on circumstantial
evidence; for example 15th century iconography showing right arms/hands
held in a more strumming than a plucking position..... ie right hand
not resting on the belly but held above the instrument - maybe even
higher up towards the neck/body join.
regards
Martyn
--- On Fri, 4/3/11, Stuart Walsh <s.wa...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
From: Stuart Walsh <s.wa...@ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Renaissance Guitar Podcast
To: "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
Cc: "JocelynNelson" <nels...@ecu.edu>, "Vihuelalist"
<vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Friday, 4 March, 2011, 10:56
On 04/03/2011 09:14, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
> Dear Stuart,
>
> I'm sorry to have to write like this, but did you not follow the
> postings I made when this was discussed earlier (months ago)? - I
> pointed out some specific strum signs in mid 16th century 4
course
> books. Two examples I recall giving are La Seraphine from
Morlaye's 4th
> book of 1552 and a Paduanne on page 16..........
>
> I think I understand that your personal preference is to pluck
all this
> stuff but I wouldn't have thought this should outweigh
considerations
> of the actaul evidence. It really is pointless responding to
these
> things only to find that months later it seems to have not been
read.
Martyn,
I think we all suffer from this! Many - well, several - times I've
noticed that later messages in a thread where I have contributed have
clearly missed what seemed to me a key point which I had carefully
explained (or so I thought). It's the nature of the medium. And it's in
the nature of the medium for threads to go off in different directions.
I was interested to discuss/chat about the practice of strumming chord
sequences well before the 1550s (as Jocelyn seemed to be suggesting) -
but it's not happening.
I'm surprised that I'd completely forgotten that you had given definite
evidence for strumming in the four-course repertoire. There is a news
item today that scientists can now grow brain cells - so I'm hoping to
get hold of a few more.
These are discussion lists, chat lists, lots of details, opinions.. and
banter (which we Brits can't seem to master at all) and open to all,
experts and all.
(I've played the four-course guitar in the past and I did try strumming
in places and have nothing against it)
Stuart
> Clearly, in these early days of strumming notation we're not
going to
> find the sophisticated notation developed some 50 years later. In
short
> the evidence is that strumming was used at the time, was used
later and
> thus may have been more common than you might wish.
>
> It's all rather reminiscent of earlier exchanges about Guerau's
work of
> 1694 for 5 course guitar: I see numerous comments to the effect
that
> Guerau never indicated strumming in this collection (even
Jeffreys in
> his comments to accompany the facsimile edition). But, of course,
he
> does - one just needs to look hard enough (for those who missed
my
> earlier see for example page 53 penultimate system bars 1 to 4)
> regards
>
> Martyn
>
>
> --- On Thu, 3/3/11, Stuart Walsh<[1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
> From: Stuart Walsh<[2]s.wa...@ntlworld.com>
> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Renaissance Guitar Podcast
> To: "Nelson, Jocelyn"<[3]nels...@ecu.edu>
> Cc: "Vihuelalist"<[4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Date: Thursday, 3 March, 2011, 18:50
>
> On 02/03/2011 19:06, Nelson, Jocelyn wrote:
> > Dear Early Guitar List,
> >
> > If you click the link below, you^1re on your way to my 16
minute
> podcast,
> > which includes commentary and music from my recent CD, Ma
Guiterre je
> te
> > chante. A transcript of my commentary is available on the
site, as
> well.
> > This was produced by ECU^1s School of Music. If you have time
to
> listen, I
> > hope you enjoy it.
> >
> >
>
[1][5]http://www.ecu.edu/cs-admin/mktg/treasured_tunes_jocelyn_nelson_p
odc
> ast.cfm
> >
> > Best wishes,
> > Jocelyn
> >
> >
> I enjoyed listening to your podcast (and I do have your CD) and I
hope
> you will do more podcasts.
> There is something I'd be very interested to follow up in your
role of
> four-course guitar player _and_ teacher of music history! You
say that
> the four-course guitar was a popular strumming instrument and I
think
> you imply it was a popular strumming instrument before the guitar
fad
> of the 16th century. This is something that intrigues me and I
have
> raised it in the past.
> Monica and Rob and others have suggested that strumming is very
old -
> older than the four-course repertoire as it appears in the mid
16th
> century. But there is no explicit strumming at all in the
four-course
> repertoire. The Braye MS has some pieces with sequences of block
chords
> which could be strummed - but could be plucked too. There was a
fairly
> recent discussion on this list about some modern transcriptions
by
> Giesbert of the Phalese (1570s) four-course music and it emerged
that
> Giesbert's extensive strumming indications were all his own
invention!
> It seems very natural to us, to add strumming to some of the
pieces in
> the four-course repertoire. And within a few decades the guitar
was,
> for a while, exclusively a strummed instrument.
> But I wonder how far before the 1550s could we reasonably expect
> guitarists to have been strumming sequences of block chords -
major and
> minor I, IV, Vs etc.
> Surely not a hundred years earlier? My amateur understanding of
15th
> century music is that most of it is in three parts (but some
> monophonic, and some in more than three parts). Chord sequences
simply
> hadn't been invented then (?) and it would be quite anachronistic
to
> try and impose them on the music(?). Improvisation was based
around
> 'tenors' - lines of long notes with rules about acceptable and
> unacceptable intervals, not on chord sequences.
> Around 1500 the earliest music (published and in MS) for the lute
> include block chords (doubling notes according to the
practicalities of
> a fingerboard in a particular tuning) but not chord sequences.
The
> block chords mingle with melodic lines - which predominate.
So(?): no
> likelihood of strumming there.
> But this early lute music also includes 'grounds' - or(?) what
later
> came to be called grounds. I wonder if these very early 'grounds'
were
> a sort of half way house between the old 'tenors' - a single
line, or
> were actually strummable - and actually strummed - chord
sequence?
> Maybe you don't want to commit yourself to actual dates - but I
wonder
> how far back do you think guitarists (and citternists and others)
could
> have been strumming chord sequences? And if they were strumming
> something else: what dispositions of notes could they have been
> strumming?
> Stuart
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> [2][6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
> --
>
> References
>
> 1.
[7]http://www.ecu.edu/cs-admin/mktg/treasured_tunes_jocelyn_nelson_podc
ast.cfm
> 2. [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>
--
References
1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
3. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nels...@ecu.edu
4. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
5. http://www.ecu.edu/cs-admin/mktg/treasured_tunes_jocelyn_nelson_podc
6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
7.
http://www.ecu.edu/cs-admin/mktg/treasured_tunes_jocelyn_nelson_podcast.cfm
8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
