Many thanks for this Monica,
I'm very grateful for your scholarly translations of these (on which I
hoped I had based my own paraphrase) and, of course, other contemporary
sources on strumming techniques.
Might I just focus on the particular repicco Chris mentioned and which
was the subject of my initial response. Your translation of the French
for this particular strum is
'You will see the example of a batterie placed in a caprice de chacone
[p.72]
where the note with the longer stem indicates that the thumb should be
used
for both up and down strokes; and you will observe that when you see
four
notes tied together, you ought to use the second finger descending, and
then
after with the first finger you will do the same upwards in a very
quick
beat; and you will continue always with the fingers and the thumb
following
the example which you will see there'.
The bit I'm focusing on is that highlighted in italics above on how to
strum the 'four notes tied together' This I think is also my take on it
paraphrased as: '....Note that the four tied beats strike down the
first note with the middle finger then with the index and then the same
as upstroke'.
What Corbetta (and most contemporary writers) fail to mention is the
involvement of the forearm and wrist. Indeed many years ago when I
first encountered this passage, I attempted to play the instructions
with a still/stiff arm and wrist (anchored down on the belly with the
little finger) simply by flicking the fingers one after the other and
then in reverse - needless to say the results were very unsatisfactory.
When the penny dropped - that the forearm and wrist were a vital part
of the mechanisim the whole strum suddenly made sense - I wonder if
others shared this experience?
I find that by careful seperation of the index and middle (now touching
each other as almost the one digit; now well seperated) one can
produce a variety of effects to suit the music whilst still adhering to
the instruction. The use of the added thumb allows, of course, an extra
degree of (especially more forceful) expression where required. Indeed,
Marchetti's instructions for this particular strum seem very similar
except he advocates the use of the thumb in place of the index which, I
suggest, gives a more rubust and aggressive sound to the strum.
I also find this is very suitable for two consecutive up-beat
semiquaver strums often found as the upbeat to an Allemande which, if
articulated by seperate up strums of the two digits is laboured and
unrythmical but if simply the two digits acting in one up strum (ie the
second part alone of Corbetta's four notes tied together strum) any
difficulty is overcome.
As said in my original email, I think there is still a long way to go
in playing strums in the rather less aggresive and more refined way
than often heard on modern recordings. As also said, I recognise that
mastering these strums in a style consistent with what the early
writers wrote is not easy but I do think we need to very much address
this issue before we (myself included!) can say with any confidence
that we are playing as the Old Ones themselves expected and expected to
hear.
Finally, in none of this do I see any place for the third finger: not
only is it not mentioned but I suggest it puts the hand in a position
and requires a longer forearm/wrist movement if three digits are
employed than with two; the reicco seems to be a generally fast
undulation producing a continuos sound rather than a heavily accented
down and upbeat.
In short, I think there's still a long way to go in developing this
peculiar technique and differentiating it from modern flamenco play.
Santiago Da Murcia seems to have, unwittingly, played a large part in
encouraging this unhistorical approach by his wonderful Spanish dances
- but I wonder what he might have made of some modern performances....
regards
Martyn
--- On Sun, 17/4/11, Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
From: Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without
Bordones
To: "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
Cc: "Vihuelalist" <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Sunday, 17 April, 2011, 17:07
Well - before we start to discuss this... it might be helpful to have
English translations of what Corbetta says in the preface - and to have
to
hand the music. The French preface is slightly different for the
Italian
French Preface
You will see the example of a batterie placed in a caprice de chacone
[p.72]
where the note with the longer stem indicates that the thumb should be
used
for both up and down strokes; and you will observe that when you see
four
notes tied together, you ought to use the second finger descending, and
then
after with the first finger you will do the same upwards in a very
quick
beat; and you will continue always with the fingers and the thumb
following
the example which you will see there.
In another chaconne [p.75] there is another batterie which I have
printed
previously (desia). And because it has the gift of pleasing, I wanted
to
place it here, where you will see that there are six strokes in the
form of
quavers. You will play four [quavers] on the first, second and third
strings carrying the hand downwards; after you will make the other two
strokes on the two fourth and fifth strings carrying the hand upwards
without touching the others; after changing the fingering [of the left
hand]
you do the same with the other six. Changing the fingers for the next
four
which follow, you will strike the first chord a little strongly and the
other three very sweetly. You will play the others in the same way
changing
the fingering as you commence the first of each six. This is why you
will
find an "f" that indicates that you strike rather strongly on the first
stroke and in this way the batterie will be more delicate.
Italian Preface
You will see an example of a repicco placed in a ciaccona [on p.72],
where
the longer tail to the note signifies the thumb; having already begun
with
the fingers [i.e. played the chord once with all four fingers], then do
the
same, upwards with the thumb, making the same upwards. Observe that
the
four tied notes signify that one must first make the note with second
finger
and then with the first close to it, and thus again as upstrokes at a
quicker tempo, and continue with the fingers and thumb.
In another next ciaccona [on p.75] you will see another repicco already
placed in the press where to confusion I have place the same more
perfect
thing. Where you see six quaver strokes, play four of them from the
third
course downwards, and moving the hand make the next two strokes on the
other
two courses, the first and second i.e. 5th & 4th], without touching the
others [1st , 2nd & 3rd]. After changing the fingers on the frets, play
in
the same way for the other six quavers, and changing the fingers at the
next
four, strike the first quaver loudly, and the other three softly. Do
the
same on changing the fingers at the other [groups of four] until the
first
six begin again. Where you find an f this means play the first of the
four
beats loudly, and thus you will achieve a beautiful repicco.
Marchetti's exlanation of the repicco is much simpler...
The repicco is made giving four strokes, that is two down and two up.
The
first stroke is played downwards with the middle finger and the second
down
with the thumb; the third stroke is played upwards with the thumb and
the
fourth up with the index finger playing however [with the index finger]
only
the cantino, or first course. One repicco equals two strokes.
Over to you now...
Monica
----- Original Message -----
From: "Martyn Hodgson" <[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
To: "Vihuela Dmth" <[2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Cc: "Chris Despopoulos" <[3]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com>; "Early
Guitar Dmth"
<[4]early-gui...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 9:57 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without Bordones
>
> To Vihuela (early guitar) list:
>
> The aside by Chris on the 'trill' he was taught to execute raises
an
> important issue not, I think, much discussed: the precise manner of
> strumming used by the Old Ones.
>
> The repertoire of strumming styles used by players of the 'baroque'
> guitar these days often seems to me to more related to modern
robust
> flamenco play than the precise technique used by earlier players
(at
> least based on what they wrote). Chris's description of his strum
is,
> of course, similar to the 'repicco' described by Corbetta in his
1671
> collection (NB bourdon on 4th course!). Translation of extract
> '....Note that the four tied beats strike down the first note with
the
> middle finger then with the index and then the same as upstroke' (I
> hope this is accurate if not a a literal translation........). That
an
> experienced player Stuart thought it a new (to him) style of
strumming
> may perhaps illustrate how many of us (me included!) fail to adhere
> always to the earlier instructions.
>
> Incidentally, I think to call it a trill (or more correctly
'trillo')
> as Chris was told, is perhaps wrong: my understanding of this term
is
> that it is a strum ornament executed by the index alone not by two
> fingers or more.
>
> Yrs in exectation of a response or two
>
> Martyn
>
>
>
> --- On Sat, 16/4/11, Chris Despopoulos
<[5]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> From: Chris Despopoulos <[6]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com>
> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: With/Without Bordones
> To: "Stuart Walsh" <[7]s.wa...@ntlworld.com>
> Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[8]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Date: Saturday, 16 April, 2011, 20:19
>
> Hi Stuart... Thanks
> The effect on that A (er G) chord was taught to me in a class of
> rasgueados for baroque guitar... They called it a trill.
> Basically,
> it's alternating up/down strokes between two fingers. If U is
up
> and D
> is down, then the gesture is:
> Da, Di, Ua, Ui -- repeated for the duration of the note. Yes, I
use
> the ring finger. But it turns out I use the ring finger for
nearly
> every rasgueado. I just have to shrug off any chastisement for
> anachronism there, because I don't know that I could manage it
any
> other way.
>
__________________________________________________________________
> From: Stuart Walsh <[1][9]s.wa...@ntlworld.com>
> To: Chris Despopoulos <[2][10]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com>
> Cc: Vihuelalist <[3][11]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Sent: Sat, April 16, 2011 1:55:20 PM
> Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] With/Without Bordones
> On 16/04/2011 16:56, Chris Despopoulos wrote:
> > I've recorded a few pieces now with a bordon on the D
course --
> Suite
> > by Roncalli, Paracumbe, and Folias by Sanz. These are
compared
> to
> > similar recordings I did without the bordon. Oddly enough,
the
> earth
> > did not crack open and swallow my guitar, flaming toads did
not
> fall
> > from the sky, and gravity as we know it still holds sway.
> > I'm inclined to view the results along the lines of
speaking a
> language
> > with an accent... Perhaps the emPHAsis is placed on
differENT
> > syllABles, but the import is generally the same, and the
> ability
> to
> > move the listener rests entirely with the speaker
regardless of
> his or
> > her accent. I've found that the bordon reveals some
aspects of
> a
> piece
> > I may not have noticed otherwise, but nothing
> earth-shattering. I
> may
> > try to record a few other pieces with a bordon just to be
> thorough.
> > (And I suppose I should try this exercise with bordones on
two
> > courses...) For my own pleasure I want to get back to
fully
> re-entrant
> > tuning, but that's just a personal and possibly temporal
> preference.
> > If you're interested, you can hear the results at:
> > [1][1][4][12]http://cudspan.net/baroque/
> > Cheers cud
> >
> > --
> Chris
> You certainly play with a lot of fire! I think the bordon on the
D
> course does make quite a difference - a darker sound maybe, or
more
> depth. And, of course you now have extra notes below the third
> course.
> How do you get that effect on the letter A (chord of G) in the
first
> bar
> of the Roncalli Prelude?
> Stuart.
> > References
> >
> > 1. [2][5][13]http://cudspan.net/baroque/
> >
> >
> > To get on or off this list see list information at
> >
[3][6][14]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >
> --
> References
> 1. [7][15]http://cudspan.net/baroque/
> 2. [8][16]http://cudspan.net/baroque/
> 3.
[9][17]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
> --
>
> References
>
> 1.
[18]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
> 2.
>
[19]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=despopoulos_chriss@yah
oo.com
> 3.
[20]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.e
du
> 4. [21]http://cudspan.net/baroque/
> 5. [22]http://cudspan.net/baroque/
> 6. [23]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 7. [24]http://cudspan.net/baroque/
> 8. [25]http://cudspan.net/baroque/
> 9. [26]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
--
References
1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
3. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
4. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=early-gui...@cs.dartmouth.edu
5. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
6. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
7. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
8. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
9. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
10. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
11. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
12. http://cudspan.net/baroque/
13. http://cudspan.net/baroque/
14. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
15. http://cudspan.net/baroque/
16. http://cudspan.net/baroque/
17. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
18. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
19. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
20. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
21. http://cudspan.net/baroque/
22. http://cudspan.net/baroque/
23. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
24. http://cudspan.net/baroque/
25. http://cudspan.net/baroque/
26. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
