Dear Chris,
I had thought I used Corbetta's own word 'trillo' for the particular
strum with an up and down movement of the index only. And, indeed, as
you'll see from the below - I did!
Dunno where tillo, trino etc come from.....
regards
Martyn
--- On Mon, 18/4/11, Chris Despopoulos <despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
From: Chris Despopoulos <despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without
Bordones
To: "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
Cc: "Vihuelalist" <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Monday, 18 April, 2011, 11:36
Dear Martyn...
Well, I called this thing a trill -- the term "tillo" never passed my
lips (or fingers, I guess). I understood it as "trill", sitting in a
class given in another language... And my hearing has deteriorated
with the years, I might add. I thought the word was "trino", which I
believe is "trill" in Spanish. In that formulation alone I see at
least three opportunities for error... Does trino = trill? Did he say
trino or trillo? Does trino = trillo? Did I play the thing right?
You give me far too much credit! And indeed, I hope to inquire about
the sources...
Anyway, I had hoped to open up this line of discussion. I'm glad for
it, and hope to learn as a result! Many thanks to all...
cud
__________________________________________________________________
From: Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
To: Chris Despopoulos <despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com>
Cc: Vihuelalist <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Mon, April 18, 2011 6:01:50 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without Bordones
Dear Chris,
I'm sure it's wise for us all to explore these things further and
with
care and reference to the sources.
Regarding courses: I'm not sure if I'd accept as gospel some personal
assertion of preference not backed up by hard evidence - whoever the
tutor may be! It is interesting in this context that you were told
this
strum was a 'trillo' whereas it is clearly a repicco since it employs
more than the index finger alone.....
best wishes
Martyn
--- On Mon, 18/4/11, Chris Despopoulos
<[1]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
From: Chris Despopoulos <[2]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without
Bordones
To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>, "Monica Hall"
<[4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>, "Stuart Walsh"
<[5]s.wa...@ntlworld.com>
Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[6]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Monday, 18 April, 2011, 10:12
Allow me a few points:
I don't believe my so-called trill is part of the flamenco technique.
Perhaps that's why I accepted it so readily! But I'm not aware of
any
flamenco performances using this approach. For a rolling
continuation
of strums Flamenco seems to use all four fingers, sometimes followed
by
an upstroke of the index to give 5 beats in one.
That said, if the ring finger is never used in a strum, then this
"trill" is indeed an anachronism. It uses i and a. I'll add that the
wrist is indeed still, and you can anchor your hand with your thumb.
Historically accurate or not, it is an interesting right-hand
technique, and it can be used elsewhere I'm sure.
So now I wonder how to achieve an indefinitely long rolling of
strums.
I'll try to work out these translations of instructions to see what
can
happen... right-hand control is always good. Indeed, the right hand
is probably the more important hand with the guitar. You can play
hundreds of notes with your left hand, but if the right hand is dead,
you'll play hundreds of dead notes. On the other hand (no pun
intended), if you can only play a single note with your left hand but
your right hand is capable of exquisite variations, you will
exquisitely express that note every time.
Finally, with luck I'll soon attend another course where I can
inquire
into the sources for this interesting little trill.
cud
__________________________________________________________________
From: Martyn Hodgson <[7]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
To: Monica Hall <[8]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>; Stuart Walsh
<[9]s.wa...@ntlworld.com>
Cc: Vihuelalist <[10]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Mon, April 18, 2011 3:57:29 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without
Bordones
Dear Stuart,
Thanks for this. I do hope you won't really give up! Like you I'm
sometimes reluctant to be quite so strict about what strum I employ
but
I think, also like you, I'm aware of the historical instructions.
I do think these strums were part of general play as, indeed,
required
by Corbetta (as well as de Visee et al - note his careful use of
strum
requiring a thumb and strum without - how often is this adhered
to?).
And I've given an example of the double upstroke to numerous
Allemandes
which I suggest are better played this way (ie double upstroke
executed
by the middle and first finger being well seperated and strumming
upwards).
I think the Roncalli 'strum' is a red herring!: in fact for this
chord
Roncalli employs the well recognised guitar sign also used in
contemporary tiorba tablatures for an extended arpeggio. But
Chris's
use of a flamenco strum certainly gave rise to this interesting
exchange.....
regards
Martyn
--- On Sun, 17/4/11, Stuart Walsh <[1][11]s.wa...@ntlworld.com>
wrote:
From: Stuart Walsh <[2][12]s.wa...@ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was
With/Without
Bordones
To: "Monica Hall" <[3][13]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Cc: "Martyn Hodgson" <[4][14]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>,
"Vihuelalist"
<[5][15]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Sunday, 17 April, 2011, 18:50
On 17/04/2011 17:07, Monica Hall wrote:
> Well - before we start to discuss this... it might be helpful to
have
> English translations of what Corbetta says in the preface - and
to
have to
> hand the music. The French preface is slightly different for the
Italian
>
> French Preface
>
> You will see the example of a batterie placed in a caprice de
chacone
[p.72]
> where the note with the longer stem indicates that the thumb
should
be used
> for both up and down strokes; and you will observe that when
you
see four
> notes tied together, you ought to use the second finger
descending,
and then
> after with the first finger you will do the same upwards in a
very
quick
> beat; and you will continue always with the fingers and the thumb
following
> the example which you will see there.
>
> In another chaconne [p.75] there is another batterie which I have
printed
> previously (desia). And because it has the gift of pleasing, I
wanted to
> place it here, where you will see that there are six strokes in
the
form of
> quavers. You will play four [quavers] on the first, second and
third
> strings carrying the hand downwards; after you will make the
other
two
> strokes on the two fourth and fifth strings carrying the hand
upwards
> without touching the others; after changing the fingering [of the
left hand]
> you do the same with the other six. Changing the fingers for the
next
four
> which follow, you will strike the first chord a little strongly
and
the
> other three very sweetly. You will play the others in the same
way
changing
> the fingering as you commence the first of each six. This is why
you
will
> find an "f" that indicates that you strike rather strongly on the
first
> stroke and in this way the batterie will be more delicate.
>
> Italian Preface
>
> You will see an example of a repicco placed in a ciaccona [on
p.72],
where
> the longer tail to the note signifies the thumb; having already
begun with
> the fingers [i.e. played the chord once with all four fingers],
then
do the
> same, upwards with the thumb, making the same upwards. Observe
that
the
> four tied notes signify that one must first make the note with
second
finger
> and then with the first close to it, and thus again as upstrokes
at
a
> quicker tempo, and continue with the fingers and thumb.
>
> In another next ciaccona [on p.75] you will see another repicco
already
> placed in the press where to confusion I have place the same more
perfect
> thing. Where you see six quaver strokes, play four of them from
the
third
> course downwards, and moving the hand make the next two strokes
on
the other
> two courses, the first and second i.e. 5th & 4th], without
touching
the
> others [1st , 2nd & 3rd]. After changing the fingers on the
frets,
play in
> the same way for the other six quavers, and changing the fingers
at
the next
> four, strike the first quaver loudly, and the other three softly.
Do
the
> same on changing the fingers at the other [groups of four] until
the
first
> six begin again. Where you find an f this means play the first
of
the four
> beats loudly, and thus you will achieve a beautiful repicco.
>
> Marchetti's exlanation of the repicco is much simpler...
>
> The repicco is made giving four strokes, that is two down and two
up. The first stroke is played downwards with the middle finger
and
the second down with the thumb; the third stroke is played upwards
with the thumb and the fourth up with the index finger playing
however
[with the index finger] only the cantino, or first course. One
repicco equals two strokes.
>
>
>
> Over to you now...
>
>
>
> Monica
>
And Monica has translated Foscarini's instructions on playing the
Trillo, Picco and Repicco in her essay 'Giovanni Paulo Foscarini:
Plagiarist or Pioneer? (at the very end)
[1][6][16]http://www.monicahall.co.uk/
(and there is another translation of Foscarini in Tyler's 'The
Early
Guitar'.)
And looking at all that, many people (like me) probably decide to
give
up! Maybe the really showy stuff is for some alfabeto and/or for
some
chaconnes/passaccales rather than general application in mixed
tablatures?
Taro Takeuchi has evolved some impressive sounding strumming
techniques
and he has not used flamenco techniques.
I was interested in Chris's first chord in the Roncall Preludio
because
it sounds quite different from other strums I've heard.
Stuart
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martyn Hodgson"
<[2][7][17]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
> To: "Vihuela Dmth" <[3][8][18]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Cc: "Chris Despopoulos" <[4][9][19]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com>;
"Early
Guitar Dmth"
> <[5][10][20]early-gui...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 9:57 AM
> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without
Bordones
>
>
>>
>> To Vihuela (early guitar) list:
>>
>> The aside by Chris on the 'trill' he was taught to execute
raises
an
>> important issue not, I think, much discussed: the precise
manner
of
>> strumming used by the Old Ones.
>>
>> The repertoire of strumming styles used by players of the
'baroque'
>> guitar these days often seems to me to more related to modern
robust
>> flamenco play than the precise technique used by earlier
players
(at
>> least based on what they wrote). Chris's description of his
strum
is,
>> of course, similar to the 'repicco' described by Corbetta in
his
1671
>> collection (NB bourdon on 4th course!). Translation of extract
>> '....Note that the four tied beats strike down the first note
with
the
>> middle finger then with the index and then the same as
upstroke'
(I
>> hope this is accurate if not a a literal translation........).
That an
>> experienced player Stuart thought it a new (to him) style of
strumming
>> may perhaps illustrate how many of us (me included!) fail to
adhere
>> always to the earlier instructions.
>>
>> Incidentally, I think to call it a trill (or more correctly
'trillo')
>> as Chris was told, is perhaps wrong: my understanding of this
term
is
>> that it is a strum ornament executed by the index alone not by
two
>> fingers or more.
>>
>> Yrs in exectation of a response or two
>>
>> Martyn
>>
>>
>>
>> --- On Sat, 16/4/11, Chris Despopoulos
<[6][11][21]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> From: Chris Despopoulos
<[7][12][22]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com>
>> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: With/Without Bordones
>> To: "Stuart Walsh" <[8][13][23]s.wa...@ntlworld.com>
>> Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[9][14][24]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>> Date: Saturday, 16 April, 2011, 20:19
>>
>> Hi Stuart... Thanks
>> The effect on that A (er G) chord was taught to me in a
class
of
>> rasgueados for baroque guitar... They called it a trill.
>> Basically,
>> it's alternating up/down strokes between two fingers. If U
is
up
>> and D
>> is down, then the gesture is:
>> Da, Di, Ua, Ui -- repeated for the duration of the note.
Yes,
I use
>> the ring finger. But it turns out I use the ring finger
for
nearly
>> every rasgueado. I just have to shrug off any chastisement
for
>> anachronism there, because I don't know that I could manage
it
any
>> other way.
>>
__________________________________________________________________
>> From: Stuart Walsh <[1][10][15][25]s.wa...@ntlworld.com>
>> To: Chris Despopoulos
<[2][11][16][26]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com>
>> Cc: Vihuelalist <[3][12][17][27]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>> Sent: Sat, April 16, 2011 1:55:20 PM
>> Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] With/Without Bordones
>> On 16/04/2011 16:56, Chris Despopoulos wrote:
>> > I've recorded a few pieces now with a bordon on the D
course
--
>> Suite
>> > by Roncalli, Paracumbe, and Folias by Sanz. These are
compared
>> to
>> > similar recordings I did without the bordon. Oddly enough,
the
>> earth
>> > did not crack open and swallow my guitar, flaming toads did
not
>> fall
>> > from the sky, and gravity as we know it still holds sway.
>> > I'm inclined to view the results along the lines of
speaking
a
>> language
>> > with an accent... Perhaps the emPHAsis is placed on
differENT
>> > syllABles, but the import is generally the same, and the
>> ability
>> to
>> > move the listener rests entirely with the speaker
regardless
of
>> his or
>> > her accent. I've found that the bordon reveals some
aspects
of
>> a
>> piece
>> > I may not have noticed otherwise, but nothing
>> earth-shattering. I
>> may
>> > try to record a few other pieces with a bordon just to be
>> thorough.
>> > (And I suppose I should try this exercise with bordones on
two
>> > courses...) For my own pleasure I want to get back to
fully
>> re-entrant
>> > tuning, but that's just a personal and possibly temporal
>> preference.
>> > If you're interested, you can hear the results at:
>> > [1][1][4][13][18][28]http://cudspan.net/baroque/
>> > Cheers cud
>> >
>> > --
>> Chris
>> You certainly play with a lot of fire! I think the bordon
on
the D
>> course does make quite a difference - a darker sound maybe,
or
more
>> depth. And, of course you now have extra notes below the
third
>> course.
>> How do you get that effect on the letter A (chord of G) in
the
first
>> bar
>> of the Roncalli Prelude?
>> Stuart.
>> > References
>> >
>> > 1. [2][5][14][19][29]http://cudspan.net/baroque/
>> >
>> >
>> > To get on or off this list see list information at
>> >
[3][6][15][20][30]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.htm
l
>> >
>> --
>> References
>> 1. [7][16][21][31]http://cudspan.net/baroque/
>> 2. [8][17][22][32]http://cudspan.net/baroque/
>> 3.
[9][18][23][33]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>
>> --
>>
>> References
>>
>> 1.
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ld.c
om
>> 2.
>>
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riss
@yah
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tmou
th.e
du
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>>
>
>
>
>
--
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51. [123]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
52.
[124]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
53.
[125]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=despopoulos_chriss@ya
hoo.com
54.
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58. [130]http://cudspan.net/baroque/
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--
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