Hmmm... Does a realised bass part always have to contain the bass
exactly as written in the staff notation as its lowest line? Of
course, ideally yes (and on the keyboard always yes) but many theorbo
continuo realisations, for example, are obliged to adapt the bass
because of lack of chromatic notes in the instrument's lower register
(or other reasons) and so must take the realised bass higher than some
of the other lower parts in the work. Thus, in a couple of Locke
anthems I have in front of me at this moment, the occassional low Eb
will have to be taken at the octave higher (and above the second and
third choir sung bass lines) if I'm going to play a natural E elswhere
in the work.
A guitar playing an Alfabeto realisation will similarly have the bass
note somewhere in the chord - hopefully at the bottom if the guitar has
bourdons on both bass courses (as my continuo guitar does) - but if not
then elsewhere in the full chord. We, and others, have often pointed
out that the peculiar stringing of the guitar (with high octaves
outwards etc) when strummed produces block chord sounds rather than a
contrapuntal accompaniment - I see no practical reason why this isn't a
realisation (ie a conversion into sound, a making known of) the
harmonies implied/required by the bass. Of course, a melodic bass
instrument is these situations is a bonus: but also note the discussion
sometime ago about Marini's songs and the use of a seperate bass with
the guitar....... Here is his observation "Note that in some places
you will find that the alfabeto does not fit with the bass line. This
is because it is the wish of the author to accompany the voice in as
many ways as possible rather than while, by paying heed to the
requirements of one instrument, he is constrained by those of the
other, since the guitar lacks many proper consonances."
I sense he thinks it a valid 'realisation' - if imperfect.
regards
Martyn
.
--- On Thu, 15/12/11, Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
From: Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
Cc: "Vihuelalist" <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Thursday, 15 December, 2011, 14:37
----- Original Message ----- From: "Martyn Hodgson"
<[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
To: "Monica Hall" <[2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>; "Lex Eisenhardt"
<[4]eisenha...@planet.nl>
Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 9:13 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
> The Corradi 1616 collection contains pieces for one, two and for
three
> voices along with an intabulated part for 'chitarrone', the guitar
> alfabeto and a staff notated bass line ('da sonare nel
Clavicembalo, et
> altri Stromenti simili'). So it's not just solo songs accompanied
by a
> solo guitar and does reflect similiar instrumental options found
for
> just basso continuo parts in similar collections - in short, I do
> think it accurate to call the guitar alfabeto a realised basso
continuo
> part in this case.
Well - obviously I haven't seen it but it sounds a bit like the
Kapsberger villanelle. However I don't think that it is correct to
call the guitar alfabeto a realized basso continuo part because it is
clearly not a realization of the bass part. Even if the alfabeto
actually matches the bass part, the guitar does not reproduce the bass
part or the harmony in the correct inversions. It won't usually even
reflect obvious harmonic progessions such as a 4-3 suspension. And as
far as the various instruments mentioned are concerned I think these
are alternatives rather than intended all to play together.
> Of course, like you, I doubt whether the Pope would have expected a
> strummed guitar in Palestrina's Messa Papae Marcelli. Indeed, is
there
> even any evidence for the excessive strumming in some modern
> fashionable performances of South American sacred settings?
Probably not as much as players today like to think - but Eloy perhaps
could tell us more about that if he is not too busy.
> We also agree on the excessive strumming ('thrashing about') often
> found in some modern performances of solo songs.
Yes indeed!
Monica
>
> --- On Wed, 14/12/11, Monica Hall <[5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>
> From: Monica Hall <[6]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return
to
> earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
> To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[7]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
> Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[8]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>, "Lex Eisenhardt"
> <[9]eisenha...@planet.nl>
> Date: Wednesday, 14 December, 2011, 15:44
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Martyn Hodgson" <[1][10]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
> To: "Lex Eisenhardt" <[2][11]eisenha...@planet.nl>
> Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[3][12]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2011 9:52 AM
> Subject: [VIHUELA] Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
earlier
> question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
> Maybe I am butting in here but I think we are a bit at cross
> purposes. I
> don't have a copy of Corradi's book but I assume that it is a
> collection of
> solo songs with voice part, bass part and alfabeto over the voice
part.
> What Agazzari is concerned with primarily is accompanying vocal
music
> in
> several parts - (which in the context I think it is appropriate to
> refer to
> as polyphony).
> The final two pages are concerned with explaining how to accompany
> Palestrina's Messa Papae Marcelli. Surely the Pope would have had
a
> fit if
> the baroque guitar or even the chitarrina was strumming
continuously
> throughout (even if the guitarist was Amat!). This
> is going to be performed in church as part of the Mass and the only
> likely
> accompaniment would have been the organ with possible a theorbo or
> other
> bass instrument reinforcing the lowest part.
> The other instruments are more likely to have been involved when
> accompanying secular vocal music in several parts as in the
choruses in
> the
> Intermedii.
> In any case I don't think that the idea is to accompany solo songs
with
> elaborate instrumental accompaniments as often seems to happen
today.
> Monica
> > Dear Lex,
> >
> > Much as I deprecate the high lervels of banging and thrashing
about
> > produced by some guitar continuo players these days, I see no
> reason to
> > suppose that strumming should be generally eschewed ('It seems
> unlikely
> > however that a chordal style, continuously including all
courses of
> the
> > instrument, was intended'). For example, song accompaniments
with
> > Alfabeto are surely nothing more than basso continuo
realisations
> on
> > the guitar (as for example in the Corradi 1616) I mentioned.
> >
> > rgds
> >
> > Martyn
> >
> > --- On Wed, 14/12/11, Lex Eisenhardt
<[4][13]eisenha...@planet.nl>
> wrote:
> >
> > From: Lex Eisenhardt <[5][14]eisenha...@planet.nl>
> > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re:
> Agazzari
> > guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
> > To: "Monica Hall" <[6][15]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> > Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[7][16]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> > Date: Wednesday, 14 December, 2011, 8:51
> >
> > >> Agazzari was working in Rome and Siena, and probably the
> chitarra
> > spagnuola was more widely known there around 1600.
> > >> But Agazzari's 'Del sonare sopra il basso' is really about
> figured
> > bass and counterpoint, and from how he describes the use of the
> > 'ornamental' instruments it appears that the chordal style of
the
> > guitar is not within sight. I doubt if Agazzari would have
> considered
> > the alfabeto of the guitar as a 'foundation', while the bass is
not
> > even performed on the guitar.
> > >
> > > I think you are interpreting what he says in too narrow a
way.
> > Amongst the second group of instruments he has included the
Lirone,
> > Cetera and the Pandora. These are all instruments which are
> capable
> > of filling in the harmony to some extent. There is no reason
to
> > suppose that they played nothing but a single lin - what would
the
> > point be - and the same is true of the chitarrina. It could
be
> > strumming away in there!
> > Agazzari (in Strunk) says: 'Like ornaments are those which, in
a
> > playful and _contrapuntal_ fashion, make the harmony more
agreeable
> and
> > sonorous.'
> > The instruments with 'imperfect harmony [of the parts] such as
the
> > cetera, lirone, chitarrina, etc.' could indeed have played more
> than
> > one voice at a time, although single line should also be
considered
> > possible. But I assume that Agazzari would have expected that
also
> this
> > was done 'in a contrapuntal fashion.' And yes, on the cetera
and
> > chitarrina that could possibly mean strumming. It seems
unlikely
> > however that a chordal style, continuously including all
courses of
> the
> > instrument, was intended
> > Lex
> > To get on or off this list see list information at
> > [1][8][17]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.htm
l
> >
> > --
> >
> > References
> >
> > 1.
[9][18]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >
>
> --
>
> References
>
> 1.
[19]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co
.uk
> 2.
[20]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
> 3.
[21]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.e
du
> 4.
[22]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
> 5.
[23]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
> 6.
[24]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> 7.
[25]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.e
du
> 8. [26]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 9. [27]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
--
References
1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
3. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
4. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
5. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
6. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
7. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
8. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
9. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
10. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
11. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
12. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
13. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
14. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
15. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
16. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
17. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
18. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
19. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
20. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
21. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
22. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
23. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
24. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
25. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
26. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
27. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
