Dear Monica,
This is all a question of context; mostly to do with expected cadential
effects and the prevailing tonality of the melodic line.
1. For example a dissonance of seconds at a cadence was a common
practice at the time; both in orchestral writing as well as on the
guitar etc. The effect even has a modern name: the 'Corelli clash'
after his frequent use of it. Typically this occurs at a cadence where
the (sharp) third of the dominant (the sharpened leading note) is
sounded concurrently with an anticipated tonic (so for a cadence ending
with a G major chord an F# is sounded together with a G). It is, in my
view, important to play this effect with 'boldness and conviction' to
ensure auditors don't think it's a mistake! In short, it is by no means
too exotic for the period as you suppose below ('Just talking about
the last two bars of line three: playing the top and bottom courses
open sounds quite rich and exotic! But perhaps far too rich for its
surroundings').
So the B to Em cadence at the end of the third line on page 2 of the
1682 publication with a D# and E sounding concurrently is perfectly
correct. I suppose you could throw in the open fifth course too (to
give a 7th A) but this is not really in line with general practice at
that time (use of sevenths at cadences became much more common in the
18th century).
2. However where there is no such cadential (or similar effect)
context, contemporary auditors would not have expected such rude
clashes interfering with the melodic line. So, for example on the same
line and 4 bars from the end, the D chord on the second beat would not
have the first course added (an open e' according to Matteis' guitar
tuning) - Matteis either overlooked this or took it as read that a
player would not need to be told. Similarly in the 'Aria' at the
beginning of page 4 the player should not include non-melodic notes
(such as an open e' on the first beat of the first full bar or the open
b and e' on the first beat of the next bar). It simply requires
careful control of the strum - perhaps some guitarists basing their
early strumming technique on modern flamenco rasgueado may find this
more difficult but, of course, it's no reason to believe the Old Ones
were not technically capable/accomplished to achieve such refined
playing.
There's also a parallel with unwritten practice in continuo playing:-
here sometimes a sixth cord is not figured at all - it being assumed
that the player has sufficient knowledge of basic rules of harmony that
in a particular key sequence such bass notes will generally need first
inversion chords (unless otherwise indicated).
regards,
Martyn
PS Incidentally, I find it easier to follow a discussion if the
responder does not interweave their reply with the sender's text - but
perhaps that's just me................
__________________________________________________________________
From: Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
To: WALSH STUART <s.wa...@ntlworld.com>
Cc: Vihuelalist <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Thursday, 14 November 2013, 22:24
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Matteis
Reply below.........
----- Original Message -----
From: "WALSH STUART" <[1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com>
To: "Monica Hall" <[2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 9:59 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Matteis
> On 14/11/2013 21:48, Monica Hall wrote:
>> Yes - that's the one and you have marked the relevant passage. In
his
>> transcription Dean has not only included the notes on the 1st and
5th
>> courses in all 4 chords. He has also shown the notes on the 4th
course
>> in both octaves. It may represent what you might hear if it was
played
>> like that but it doesn't make the harmony very clear.
>
> Just talking about the last two bars of line three: playing the top
and
> bottom courses open sounds quite rich and exotic! But perhaps far too
rich
> for its surroundings.
>
>
> Does Dean (following his own precepts) also transcribe the chord,
fourth
> bar from the end of line three, second beat,also with open top and
bottom
> courses?
He hasn't transcribed the whole piece - only the last 3 bars of line 3
and
the E minor chord on the next line. But IMHO you could include the 5th
course in this bar but it doesn't make any sense to include the 1st
course
although there is no dot.
Also at the very beginning the first chord in the first full bar - it
is a G
major chord so you could include the 4th course but not the 5th but
there is
no dot.
But in both places Matteis has put in the "a"s.
At the second bar from the end of the first line Matteis has indicated
that
the first course should be omitted from the G major chord and included
the
"a"s.
So he has two systems working in tandem but he is not consistent. In
the
first bar of the bottom line he hasn't put in the "a"s in the E minor
chord
but it is a standard alfabeto chord. .
Monica
>> Matteis does quite often indicate that the 1st course should be
omitted
>> even from standard chords so as to create a more interesting melodic
>> line.
>> Monica
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "WALSH STUART"
<[4]s.wa...@ntlworld.com>
>> To: "Monica Hall" <[5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>; "Natasha Miles"
>> <[6]natasha.mi...@hotmail.co.uk>
>> Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[7]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>> Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 9:35 PM
>> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Matteis
>>
>>
>>> Monica
>>>
>>> Were you talking (initially anyway) about this:
>>>
>>>
>>> [8]http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Matteis2.jpg
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Stuart
>>>> Actually I just noticed that Dean's transcription of Fig.4.12A
is
>>>> wrong. In the 2nd measure the B major chord is repeated, not
the
>>>> the C
>>>> major one.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Monica
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>
>>>> From: [1]Natasha Miles
>>>>
>>>> To: [2]Monica Hall
>>>>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 8:57 PM
>>>>
>>>> Subject: RE: [VIHUELA] Re: Matteis
>>>>
>>>> Yes, that's the one.
>>>> __________________________________________________________________
>>>>
>>>> From: [3][9]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
>>>> To: [4][10]natasha.mi...@hotmail.co.uk
>>>> Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Matteis
>>>> Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 20:56:36 +0000
>>>> "Sorry if I was unclear but I was referring to the 'otherwise'
>>>> cadence
>>>> in B on page 12. The notations imply, to me at least, that the
A
>>>> sharp
>>>> is to be re-struck in the final B chord. "
>>>>
>>>> Do you mean the one on the top stave of the 4 bracketted
examples.
>>>> I
>>>> think the A# is an ascending appoggiatura...
>>>>
>>>> Monica
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>
>>>> From: [5]Natasha Miles
>>>>
>>>> To: [6]Monica Hall
>>>>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 8:33 PM
>>>>
>>>> Subject: RE: [VIHUELA] Re: Matteis
>>>>
>>>> I agree that the melodic line should be taken into account. I
>>>> found
>>>> when transcribing Foscarini's music that some of his more
ambiguous
>>>> dissonante chords worked better melodically when some of the
>>>> courses
>>>> were muted.
>>>> Sorry if I was unclear but I was referring to the 'otherwise'
>>>> cadence
>>>> in B on page 12. The notations imply, to me at least, that the
A
>>>> sharp
>>>> is to be re-struck in the final B chord.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Valdambrini's notations are clearer. He notates an 0 when open
>>>> strings
>>>> are to be included. Some of his harmonies are pretty
adventurous.
>>>> If
>>>> you have his 1646 book to hand there is a B chord with an open
1st
>>>> course indicated on the third system of page 12. There are many
>>>> more
>>>> examples in the 5th passacaglia in the 1647 book (p.17, 6th and
7th
>>>> system). Valdambrini does not notate an 0 when he wants the
inner
>>>> courses to sound alone. In the 1st bar of the 2nd system
(p.17)
>>>> this
>>>> serves an obvious melodic purpose.
>>>> Natasha
>>>> > Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 20:04:21 +0000
>>>> > To: [11]natasha.mi...@hotmail.co.uk
>>>> > CC: [12]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
>>>> > From: [13]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
>>>> > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Matteis
>>>> >
>>>> > Thanks for your helpful reply.
>>>> >
>>>> > The piece on p.2 is actually a solo piece, not part of the
>>>> section on
>>>> > accompaniment. I can see no objection to including the 5th
course
>>>> at
>>>> least
>>>> > in the first chord as it is the dominant 7th and with the
French
>>>> tuning will
>>>> > sound in the upper octave but if you include the 1st course
>>>> throughout the
>>>> > passage it spoils the melodic line which seems to me to be an
>>>> important
>>>> > element in the composition.
>>>> >
>>>> > The second example which Dean has given on the same page
p.260
>>>> but
>>>> hasn't
>>>> > transcribed is from Matteis p.50, the 1st system. This is
>>>> illustrating a
>>>> > 4-3 suspension. The bass line is figured and Matteis has not
>>>> indicated
>>>> > that the 7th should be included in the chord. As far as the
>>>> melodic
>>>> line
>>>> > is concerned it is also more varied if the 1st course is not
>>>> repeated
>>>> all
>>>> > the way through.
>>>> >
>>>> > This same progression occurs in the example on p.30/2nd
>>>> system/2nd
>>>> bar. On
>>>> > the 5th quaver he has duplicated the note E in unison - there
is
>>>> an a
>>>> on
>>>> > line 1 as well as an f on line 2. Again it seems to me that
the
>>>> melodic
>>>> > line is paramount. The same progression occurs in the last
bar.
>>>> >
>>>> > These examples are supposed to illustrate basic progressions
used
>>>> in
>>>> > continuo accompaniment .It seems to me to be reading far more
>>>> into
>>>> them than
>>>> > Matteis intended to suggest that they represent the unusual
>>>> dissonance
>>>> > associated with Italian monody.
>>>> >
>>>> > In the 'extraordinary' alternative cadence on B (on page 12)
the
>>>> suspended
>>>> > 4th is doubled on the 5th course but with the French tuning
it
>>>> will
>>>> be in
>>>> > unison with the B on the 3rd course. The A# is given as a
single
>>>> note.
>>>> > The chord is not to be repeated. Corbetta does this a lot.
>>>> >
>>>> > In the examples in the initial section - from p8-13 he
doesn't
>>>> seem
>>>> to put
>>>> > any dots in. On p12 - the second of the exmples labeled
>>>> "Otherwise"
>>>> the 4th
>>>> > and 5th courses can't possibly be included in the 1st chord
which
>>>> is
>>>> G# C#
>>>> > F# resolving to E# although he has indicated that it should
be
>>>> strummed.
>>>> >
>>>> > You could go on .listing all the discrepancies. I must have a
>>>> look at
>>>> > Valdambrini.. How literally do you take the notation?
>>>> >
>>>> > As ever
>>>> > Monica
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > ----- Original Message -----
>>>> > From: "Natasha Miles" <[14]natasha.mi...@hotmail.co.uk>
>>>> > To: "Monica Hall" <[15]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
>>>> > Cc: "Vihuela List" <[16]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>>>> > Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 6:13 PM
>>>> > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Matteis
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > > Hi Monica,
>>>> > > I've been tackling similar passages for transcription
recently.
>>>> As
>>>> the
>>>> > > printed notations offer no guarantee of being error free
and as
>>>> such
>>>> > > inconsistencies in notation are common (see Matteis p. 29
2nd
>>>> bar,
>>>> > > where the same chord has a muted 5th course but no dot on
the
>>>> 1st
>>>> > > course) I look for evidence of the fully strummed voicing
in
>>>> use
>>>> > > elsewhere and also take into account my own preferences.
>>>> Valdambrini
>>>> > > notates the clashing D sharp and open E on a number of
>>>> occasions. I
>>>> > > don't have my sources to hand at the moment but I wouldn't
be
>>>> surprised
>>>> > > to find it in Corbetta/Bartolotti/Foscarini too. A 4/3
clash in
>>>> the
>>>> > > context of a cadence is quite a common (see also the
grating
>>>> dissonance
>>>> > > in Matteis's 'extraordinary' alternative cadence on B on
page
>>>> 12).
>>>> All
>>>> > > in all I don't find the inclusion of the open courses too
>>>> offensive.
>>>> > > Then again, I'd probably play the chord differently as it
>>>> re-occurred.
>>>> > > Maybe including the open 1st course on one occasion and
>>>> sounding
>>>> just
>>>> > > the inner courses on another depending on how dissonant I
>>>> wanted
>>>> the
>>>> > > chord to sound.
>>>> > > > Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 16:12:40 +0000
>>>> > > > To: [17]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
>>>> > > > CC: [18]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
>>>> > > > From: [19]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
>>>> > > > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Matteis
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > > It is on p.2 at the end of the third stave.
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > > Whilst you are looking at the book could you also look at
the
>>>> > > following
>>>> > > > piece on p.3, the last stave. You will see that the same
>>>> phrase
>>>> > > occurs
>>>> > > > twice. Matteis has indicated that the 4th and 5th courses
are
>>>> to
>>>> be
>>>> > > > omitted the first time (in the first full bar) with dots,
but
>>>> the
>>>> > > > second time (bar 5) there are no dots!
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > > Monica
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > > ----- Original Message -----
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > > From: [1]Martyn Hodgson
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > > To: [2]Monica Hall
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > > Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 4:08 PM
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > > Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Matteis
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > > Page no in 1682 original plse
>>>> > > > M
>>>> > > >
>>>> __________________________________________________________________
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > > From: Monica Hall <[3][20]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
>>>> > > > To: Vihuelalist <[4][21]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>>>> > > > Sent: Thursday, 14 November 2013, 15:34
>>>> > > > Subject: [VIHUELA] Matteis
>>>> > > > On p.260 of his dissertation Alex Dean has reproduced two
>>>> passages
>>>> > > > from
>>>> > > > Matteis's "False consonances".
>>>> > > > In his transcription of the excerpt at the top of the
page
>>>> Dean
>>>> > > > proposes that the open 1st and 5th courses should be
included
>>>> in
>>>> > > > all the chords in the 2nd and 3rd bars.
>>>> > > > Although Matteis does put dots on the lines very
frequently
>>>> to
>>>> > > > indicate
>>>> > > > that courses should be omitted he has not done so here.
>>>> However
>>>> he
>>>> > > > does not seem to me to be wholly consistent about putting
in
>>>> the
>>>> > > > dots,
>>>> > > > about putting in"a"s for open courses - or for that
matter in
>>>> > > > indicating whether 4 part chords should be strummed.
>>>> > > > I wonder how many people on the list - who can be
bothered to
>>>> look at
>>>> > > > it - would include the open course in this passage.
>>>> > > > Perhaps we could have a vote on it!
>>>> > > > As ever
>>>> > > > Monica
>>>> > > > --
>>>> > > > To get on or off this list see list information at
>>>> > > >
[5][22]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > > --
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > > References
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > > 1. mailto:[23]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
>>>> > > > 2. mailto:[24]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
>>>> > > > 3. mailto:[25]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
>>>> > > > 4. mailto:[26]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
>>>> > > > 5.
[27]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>>> > > >
>>>> > >
>>>> > > --
>>>> > >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> References
>>>>
>>>> 1. mailto:[28]natasha.mi...@hotmail.co.uk
>>>> 2. mailto:[29]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
>>>> 3. mailto:[30]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
>>>> 4. mailto:[31]natasha.mi...@hotmail.co.uk
>>>> 5. mailto:[32]natasha.mi...@hotmail.co.uk
>>>> 6. mailto:[33]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
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--
References
1. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com
2. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
3. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
4. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com
5. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
6. mailto:natasha.mi...@hotmail.co.uk
7. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
8. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Matteis2.jpg
9. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
10. mailto:natasha.mi...@hotmail.co.uk
11. mailto:natasha.mi...@hotmail.co.uk
12. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
13. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
14. mailto:natasha.mi...@hotmail.co.uk
15. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
16. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
17. mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
18. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
19. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
20. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
21. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
22. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
23. mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
24. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
25. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
26. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
27. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
28. mailto:natasha.mi...@hotmail.co.uk
29. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
30. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
31. mailto:natasha.mi...@hotmail.co.uk
32. mailto:natasha.mi...@hotmail.co.uk
33. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
34. http://www.avast.com/
35. http://www.avast.com/
