Looks like I'll run a 6v starter temporarily then switch to 12v when I put in the new engine. Thanks for the info!
-Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: "marc vellat" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Air-Cooled Volkswagen Discussion List" <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2008 4:02 AM Subject: Re: [vintagvw] 12v flywheel on 6v crank question - Part two > Again we need to set the record straight on > terminology. The diameter of the clutch (180mm or > 200mm) does NOT go hand-in-hand with the tooth-count > of the flywheel (109 for 6V, 130 for 12V). > As a rule, VW used 180mm clutches on 1200 and 1300cc > engines and 200mm clutches on 1500 and 1600cc engines. > Yes, the 180mm flywheel is a slight detriment to > "revability" compared to the 200mm setup because it > contains more mass near the perimeter - a bit more > than is offset by that of the larger 200mm clutch. But > it's a minor point, trivial compared to the inherent > deficiency of the small clutch when it comes to > handling significant horsepower...a "heavy-duty" or > "Porsche" 180mm cover is needed IMO for anything > bigger than a stock 1300, and the pedal pressure and > wear & tear on the clutch cable and related components > is undesirable - a stock 200mm clutch holds better > with less effort....and the weight of the stock 200mm > flywheel/clutch setup is still plenty adequate for > your bus (it's what the factory used on all `67 buses, > after all). > > There were 1500cc engines back in the 6V days (found > in buses and Type IIIs), and VW continued to produce > 1200 and 1300cc engines for other markets after the > switch to 12V occurred. Therefore there are six > different stock flywheels: > 6V (109-tooth) non-O-ring 180mm clutch (Most common 6V > Type I, used on `61-early`66 bugs and 1200cc buses) > 6V (109-tooth) non-O-ring 200mm clutch (1500cc buses > and Type IIIs) > 6V (109-tooth) O-ring 180mm clutch (late`66 bug) > 6V (109-tooth) O-ring 200mm clutch (late `66 bus/III) > 12V (130-tooth) O-ring 180mm clutch (12V 1200/1300cc > engines, never offered in US market) > 12V (130-tooth) O-ring 200mm clutch, the most common, > used on every Type I/III sold in the US from `67 on > and on `67-`71 buses...it was also used on some > late`66 'Ghias that still had a 6V electrical system > along with a special starter, rare as hen's teeth in > the US (SR14) - THAT was an effective old-school > hot-rodder combo, running that 6V starter on 12V gave > extra oomph for cranking a high-compression engine > (read on) > 109-tooth `wheels do not have induction-hardened teeth > like the 130-tooth ones (look at the tooth area of a > 12V `wheel, you'll see it has a blue discoloration > caused by that process) and will rapidly wear out when > you run them and a common SR11 6V starter on 12V. The > starter itself will hold up just fine, provided it's > never overheated by extended cranking, but the > flywheel teeth are another story. Fitting a 12V > solenoid will ease the initial engagement clash and > lengthen the flywheel life considerably, but it'll > still never hold up the way a 130-tooth will...unless > you mill the teeth completely off and shrink on a > hardened replacement ring gear as was done on > factory-exchange engines (you can buy those ring gears > from Gene Berg still I believe, but they're spendy - > as is the machinework). > > Now, to the question of fitting a non-O-ring flywheel > to an O-ring crank. > Yes, it will fit. Obviously you must use a gasket > between them, and remember what I said earlier about > the perils of using early endplay shims on a late > crank - be sure to use only the smaller-ID shims > intended for use on the O-ring crank, if they'll slip > past the step onto the main-bearing journal area > they're the large-ID non-O-ring style. > > I wouldn't plan on using a non-O-ring 6V 200mm (forget > about a 180mm altogether for a bus!) flywheel on your > future O-ring-crank 1600 just to save the cost of > buying two starters for two reasons. One, the > aforementioned weakness of the non-hardened teeth on > the 6V 'wheel, and Two, the O-ring setup is much more > reliable when it comes to keeping oil off the clutch - > there was a good reason for VW to bother to change the > design. > > Now, if you happened to find a factory-exchange O-ring > 109-tooth 200mm flywheel that had the hardened-steel > replacement ring gear, you could run THAT on the 1600 > with a 6V starter on 12V for a long long time...good > luck finding one ;) > > --- Dan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> This is kind of a weird situation because I'll only >> be running the 1500cc >> engine (6v crank) for at a few months until I get my >> new engine (12v crank) >> built. If possible I am trying to bet by with only >> purchasing one starter. >> Someone Emailed me saying: "...and by the way: the >> 6V 200 mm clutch flywheel >> on this vintage bus are an old hot rod item. They >> are much lighter in >> weight than a Type I 6V flywheel so you get the >> benefit of a lightened >> flywheel if you use a 6V bus flywheel in an early 6V >> bug." Can anyone >> confirm this? My bus is being built as a highway >> cruiser and camper not a >> dragster so a lightened flywheel is not something I >> want. I always thought >> the hot rodders wanted the 200mm flywheels for the >> bigger clutch disc. >> >> -Dan >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "No Quarter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> To: "Air-Cooled Volkswagen Discussion List" >> <[email protected]> >> Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 6:27 PM >> Subject: Re: [vintagvw] 12v flywheel on 6v crank >> question - Part two >> >> >> > Your idea of the 6V starter isn't a bad one Dan. >> 6v starters last forever >> > and with 12v they *really* get the engine >> cranking. >> > >> > And I guess I sort of answered your question you >> posted in the subsequent >> > post. That 1966 beetle I worked on used a 6v >> flywheel that had been >> > turned >> > down or something to fit on the 12v engine. If >> Marc can't help you here, >> > you might want to give Phil a call at >> 1-800-805-7098 and ask him. Then >> > you >> > might see if he has a starter for you. At least >> appease him for his info >> > and buy something from him. I usually buy oil >> change kits or something >> > like >> > that. :) >> > >> > Erin >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > vintagvw site list >> > [email protected] >> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/vintagvw >> > >> > >> > -- >> > No virus found in this incoming message. >> > Checked by AVG Free Edition. >> > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.11/1242 >> - Release Date: >> > 1/24/2008 8:32 PM >> > >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> vintagvw site list >> [email protected] >> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/vintagvw >> > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > _______________________________________________ > vintagvw site list > [email protected] > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/vintagvw > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.11/1244 - Release Date: > 1/25/2008 7:44 PM > > _______________________________________________ vintagvw site list [email protected] http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/vintagvw
