David, I agree to some extent with your sentiments, but unfortunately we are not the same population as the sighted population, but you don't have to tell Apple that, since they created VoiceOver based on this fact. In other words, they of all people know our needs are different.
I think the issue with the proper implementation of refunds due to inaccessible apps was an oversight on Apple's behalf when it came to properly instructing their customer service agents. Granted it's a huge oversight but one nonetheless. You will "always" have people gaining the system, so it isn't fair to punish the entire population because of the actions of the few. By the way, like you, I've never asked for a refund as I feel wasting hours of my day in frustration amounts to many orders of magnitude the price of the app. That is, I'm not going to waste 3 hours of my time, effort, and frustration for a $1 or $2 app. I would actually feel very embarrassed taking the time out to compose an email message requesting the reimbursement of 4 quarters. <Smile>. Joseph ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Chittenden" <dchitten...@gmail.com> To: <viphone@googlegroups.com> Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2013 4:05 AM Subject: Re: Apple App Store & Refunds for inaccessible Apps Here is my problem with all this stuff around accessibility of apps. Apple clearly states in their documentation for those who are not blind, that all sales are final. People on this list argue that sighted persons can look at the, up to five, screen shots to ascertain if the app will work for them. Get real, folks, five pictures does not tell a person how well an app works. Five pictures only tells a person if they will find the lay-out of five appearances of app screens to be acceptable. I have read many reviews of apps where the reviewer comments that the app is a waste of money and the reviewer wishes he/she did not waste the money on the app. And, this is the case no matter how expensive the app is. So, basically, what I interpret people to be saying is, we are special. We require charity. We do not wish to be treated like everybody else. For example, and the reason I am so specific about this, and the reason I have never, and will never, unless Apple changes its general policy, ask for an app refund is, a couple months after DigitEyes was placed for sale on the App Store, a person on this list at that time could not figure out how to get DigitEyes to work for himself/herself, so the person told Apple that DigitEyes was not accessible and received a refund. DigitEyes was specifically developed to be accessible. It just was not useable for that person for whatever reason. Therefore, the person flagrantly and completely abused Apple's charity refund policy for us poor, helpless, blind folk. David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA Email: dchitten...@gmail.com Mobile: +64 21 2288 288 Sent from my iPhone On 12/09/2013, at 22:10, Joanne Chua <shuang.an...@gmail.com> wrote: > If blind and vips people insist that if an app is not accessible with > voiceover, we have the rights to refun/return the apps deal to > inaccessibility within the apps. Now, i have a question and a thought, if > a developer specificly develop apps for voiceover and does not have other > way of accessing the apps but voiceover, can an ordinary non-voiceover > user refun the app with the condition that is being too accessible for the > minority, but inaccessible for the other people? > Of course, this is just a point of arguement, it does not involve any of > the app development policy or anything or such. Just looking at things in > different angle.. > > > Joanne Chua > The flip side of Inclusion is Exclusion. > Leaders For Tomorrow 2013 Candidate > Send from my iPad > > On 12/09/2013, at 19:13, Joseph FreeTech <joseph.freet...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> So this 90-day policy has "always" been the case, right? Nothing has been >> changed nor lawsuits nor petitions been used to force compliance by >> Apple, >> right? >> >> As a general statement conveying my own personal opinion, this incident >> is >> more proof for the value of asking questions and educating oneself rather >> than starting long, expensive legal wars. <Smile>. >> >> I would now ask for a link to a "terms of agreement" webpage on the >> matter >> of accessibility, which we can all point to when the issue of refunds for >> inaccessible apps pops up. This will serve to educate ourselves and to >> educate the next Apple customer service employee who doesn't clearly >> understand the apple refund policy. We would be in a much better place to >> present a good case if we can provide customer service with the link >> specifying our rights as Apple customers. >> >> Glad all came to a friendly close... for now. <Smile>. >> >> Joseph >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Neil Barnfather - TalkNav" <for...@talknav.com> >> To: <viphone@googlegroups.com> >> Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2013 1:58 AM >> Subject: Re: Apple App Store & Refunds for inaccessible Apps >> >> >> Patrick, >> >> I, like David, have now heard from Apple's Accessibility team that >> refunds >> for none accessible apps will be granted within a 90 day window, and that >> this is Apple's policy on this matter. They had no explanation or apology >> as >> to why it had been ignored or not followed by what they termed as five >> separate members of the iTunes Team being involved, but, never the less >> I've >> now got my refund and have an e-mail from Accessibility with the policy >> clearly spelled out. >> >> As such, I'm a happy bunny again and hopefully Apple's Accessibility team >> might take me up on my suggestion that they round robin e-mail all iTunes >> support staff informing them of the policy again! >> >> Thanks to all who've participated in this conversation. >> >> >> >> Regards, >> >> Neil Barnfather >> >> Talks List Administrator >> Twitter @neilbarnfather >> >> TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, as well as an Apple >> iOS, Macintosh and Android accessibility specialist. For all your >> accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com >> >> URL: - www.talknav.com >> e-mail: - serv...@talknav.com >> Phone: - +44 844 999 4199 >> >> On 12 Sep 2013, at 04:40, Patrick Neazer <vantagepoint1...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> Hello Neil and all: >>> >>> Thank you so much for your presentation of your position. It is clear >>> and >>> well thought out. >>> >>> As an iPhone user attempting to find my way through this maze I must >>> weigh >>> what you have so skillfully articulated alongside what seemingly seems >>> to >>> be Apple's position … Apple states: >>> >>> >>> Hello, >>> >>> Thank you for your email. The iTunes Store policy regarding app refunds >>> for inaccessibile apps has not changed. The Store will provide refunds >>> as >>> long as they fall within the 90 day refund window (as is standard with >>> any >>> iTunes Store refund.) Please ensure that any refund you request is made >>> in >>> a timely manner as we cannot grant exceptions to the 90 day policy. >>> >>> Apple Accessibility. >>> >>> So, my dilemma persists. Apple seems to have a policy as stated by the >>> people to whom we are asked to write. and yet, seemingly, there is a >>> disconnect. Is there a problem with the 90 day window? Is the answer >>> possibly what was suggested earlier that the standard method by which to >>> receive these refunds is online and not over the phone? is that what is >>> potentially causing the log jam? >>> >>> As I have stated earlier, and will say again, I have no pre rehearsed >>> answer to any of these questions. however, I think if these questions >>> are >>> taken seriously two things will be the natural result: >>> >>> 1. a transparent answer will be arrived at without needing to appeal to >>> personalities. Principle should govern the discussion and that means >>> establishing for anyone who is faced with such an occurrence of needing >>> a >>> refund what the actual rules are and how they impact everyone >>> proportionately. >>> >>> 2. And understanding of what is and what is not happening so >>> constructive >>> solutions to existing reality can be offered. >>> >>> I did not mention him by name earlier though I will now … Tyler made a >>> suggestion which I believed is based in principle from the perspective >>> of >>> the developers … making Apple's documentation easier to use. That is a >>> universal strategy which has been embraced by many communities and can >>> be >>> measured. >>> >>> I know that the response I received from accessibility was not only sent >>> to my inbox. does anyone have any experience to share here that might >>> shed >>> more light upon the topic? the security of knowing that the world's >>> leading accessibility company is both responsive and collaborative is >>> always a fruitful topic for conversation and a fantastic catalyst for >>> action. >>> >>> The purchasing of apps is a topic close to all of us. Thank you from >>> here >>> to all whom have participated and offered their best efforts. >>> >>> Take good care and I wish you enough. >>> On Sep 11, 2013, at 6:05 PM, Neil Barnfather - TalkNav >>> <for...@talknav.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Patrick, >>>> >>>> As it was I whom started the thread I shall answer as follows… >>>> >>>> Apple's official online policy for App Store purchases is that once >>>> completed they are none refundable and all purchases are final. >>>> >>>> There are no exemptions listed and its pretty much a catch all, once >>>> you've pressed buy, entered your password and pressed OK, you're done, >>>> that's it, no money back and importantly especially for Voice Over >>>> users, >>>> no guarantee… >>>> >>>> What I am lobbying for, and the call to arms if you will, is for us >>>> together as a community to tell Apple that this policy puts our >>>> community >>>> uniquely at a disadvantage. >>>> >>>> We cannot look at the screen shots, almost never is there a review by a >>>> Voice Over user pointing out whether or not the app is accessible or >>>> not, >>>> where there is, how would you find that single review amongst many >>>> others… Often App developers are unaware of our needs, the tools Apple >>>> provide to resolve those and link up with their accessibility API's >>>> which >>>> provide features like Voice Over to operate. >>>> >>>> Apple themselves make no effort to point these features out to >>>> developers, they do not screen apps submitted to them for compliance, >>>> they offer no incentive to, or not to, comply with their standards, and >>>> finally, they offer us the user no way of simply flagging an app in an >>>> easy to follow and find manner that an app has been certified by our >>>> community as functional. >>>> >>>> Given all of the above, I believe it right and proper that Apple accept >>>> that occasionally we will purchase an app and it will not function as >>>> intended by the developer for us, and as such, we aught to be entitled >>>> to >>>> our money back. >>>> >>>> That's it, in a nut shell, no bells, no whistles, no credibility check, >>>> plain simple language that I hope covers my specific grievance in one. >>>> >>>> Whilst some have pointed out is all this necessary for the odd dollar >>>> here and there, I suppose it comes down to how many apps you buy and at >>>> what cost they are. >>>> >>>> I personally buy 5 or so a week, granted most of these are low cost, >>>> but >>>> the app that specifically caused me to write to them was £35 about >>>> US$50. >>>> and I consider this worthy of my money back. >>>> >>>> This aside, no-one should be made to pay money for something they >>>> cannot >>>> use, no matter the amount. >>>> >>>> Hope that this clears things up >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Neil Barnfather >>>> >>>> Talks List Administrator >>>> Twitter @neilbarnfather >>>> >>>> TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, as well as an >>>> Apple >>>> iOS, Macintosh and Android accessibility specialist. For all your >>>> accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com >>>> >>>> URL: - www.talknav.com >>>> e-mail: - serv...@talknav.com >>>> Phone: - +44 844 999 4199 >>>> >>>> On 11 Sep 2013, at 20:11, Patrick Neazer <vantagepoint1...@gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hello Neil, Joseph, and all: >>>>> >>>>> I have been following this thread since its inception and I must >>>>> confess >>>>> I am a bit confused by the arc of the conversation. It began with a >>>>> judgement pertaining to a policy which may or may not exist addressing >>>>> the refund of money for app purchases. then, a turn was taken to >>>>> patronizing activity or not. then there was an appeal to the >>>>> upstanding >>>>> credentials of an individual and then … well … I lost the trail. >>>>> >>>>> I am not attempting to take sides or a stand. I am truly attempting to >>>>> understand what is actually occurring and what the call to action is. >>>>> so, in an attempt to clarify my obvious unclear view here is my >>>>> question … does Apple have a stated policy or procedure which is >>>>> clearly >>>>> stated and viewable by the public governing refunds for app purchases >>>>> and does there policy outline any unique exemptions based on pick the >>>>> criteria of choice? If that information could be presented as quickly >>>>> as >>>>> links to write to apple requesting policy changes and adaptations to >>>>> business practices that would go a long way I believe to clearing up >>>>> my >>>>> apparent confusion and sharpening the discussion in the minds of other >>>>> members of the community who may be experiencing the same confusion I >>>>> am >>>>> experiencing. Of course, I may be the only one confused and if so, >>>>> anyone reading this whom has been following the thread is free to >>>>> disregard anything written above. >>>>> >>>>> Thank you to anyone who reads this and responds in a constructive >>>>> manner >>>>> and high fives to all those who take up the mantle of improving the >>>>> tools which make the lives of persons with disabilities easier to >>>>> navigate. >>>>> >>>>> Take good care and I wish you enough. >>>>> >>>>> Patrick >>>>> On Sep 11, 2013, at 1:46 PM, Joseph FreeTech >>>>> <joseph.freet...@gmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Well, the suggestion I posted has nothing to do with you personally. >>>>>> <Smile>. it's a general, unbiased suggestion, and had anyone else >>>>>> made >>>>>> it, I >>>>>> would have suggested the same thing. It was another lister who turned >>>>>> this >>>>>> into a bit of an ad hominem discussion. >>>>>> >>>>>> Joseph >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Neil Barnfather - TalkNav" <for...@talknav.com> >>>>>> To: <viphone@googlegroups.com> >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 11:22 AM >>>>>> Subject: Re: Apple App Store & Refunds for inaccessible Apps >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Joseph, >>>>>> >>>>>> As Sieghard has said, I'm not one for such things, and have been a >>>>>> positive >>>>>> advocate of our community online and off line for many, many years >>>>>> now… >>>>>> I >>>>>> would recommend that you check out my web-site; neilbarnfather.com >>>>>> for >>>>>> some >>>>>> information and this might explain a little more about myself and my >>>>>> work. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> >>>>>> Neil Barnfather >>>>>> >>>>>> Talks List Administrator >>>>>> Twitter @neilbarnfather >>>>>> >>>>>> TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, as well as an >>>>>> Apple >>>>>> iOS, Macintosh and Android accessibility specialist. For all your >>>>>> accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com >>>>>> >>>>>> URL: - www.talknav.com >>>>>> e-mail: - serv...@talknav.com >>>>>> Phone: - +44 844 999 4199 >>>>>> >>>>>> On 11 Sep 2013, at 17:13, Joseph FreeTech <joseph.freet...@gmail.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Very smart suggestion. Let's say we all jump on this bandwagon (once >>>>>>> again), >>>>>>> and in the end we discover that whoever the original person this >>>>>>> happened >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> was very nasty and demanding to the Apple customer service >>>>>>> employees; >>>>>>> hence >>>>>>> the poor service. We're all going to be very embarrassed and not >>>>>>> likely to >>>>>>> take this issue up again in the future. We first need proof of a >>>>>>> pattern >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> poor service and not just some single person's complaint. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Joseph >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "Lisa belville" <missktlab1...@frontier.com> >>>>>>> To: <viphone@googlegroups.com> >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 7:59 AM >>>>>>> Subject: Re: Apple App Store & Refunds for inaccessible Apps >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi. Is there any way you could share a letter showing how the Apple >>>>>>> people >>>>>>> were patronizing/unhelpful in this regard? I understand the >>>>>>> frustration >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> not getting a refund for something inaccessible and how a clueless >>>>>>> rep >>>>>>> makes >>>>>>> this all the more annoying, but IMO there's a difference between >>>>>>> politely/patiently conveying a policy and being patronizing. >>>>>>> Obviously, >>>>>>> you >>>>>>> can take out any names in this letter, but it would be good to see >>>>>>> an >>>>>>> example of this attitude. Could it possibly be this particular >>>>>>> rep's >>>>>>> issue >>>>>>> and not necessarily one of Apple itself? I'm referring to the >>>>>>> patronizing/unsympathetic attitude and not the policy itself. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Lisa >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There is a fine line between genius and insanity and that difference >>>>>>> is a >>>>>>> paycheck! >>>>>>> Lisa Belville >>>>>>> missktlab1...@frontier.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "Neil Barnfather - TalkNav" <for...@talknav.com> >>>>>>> To: <macvisionar...@googlegroups.com>; <viphone@googlegroups.com>; >>>>>>> "The >>>>>>> Accessible Phones Discussion List" <blindpho...@mosenexplosion.com> >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 8:58 AM >>>>>>> Subject: Apple App Store & Refunds for inaccessible Apps >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The below should prove a concern to all Apple accessibility feature >>>>>>> users, >>>>>>> and I would urge as many of you who can do so, to please write to >>>>>>> Apple >>>>>>> yourselves to express your concern along the same lines where >>>>>>> possible… >>>>>>> (accessibil...@apple.com). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> For years now Apple has led the way in accessibility standards and >>>>>>> application of methods in interacting with all of its product range. >>>>>>> Internationally within many disability arenas Apple is celebrated as >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> defacto standard and is widely acknowledged as users preferred >>>>>>> platform >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> persons with accessibility issues. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Whether or not the App Store had an unofficial policy towards >>>>>>> customers >>>>>>> with >>>>>>> accessibility needs or not, is unknown to me. What I am aware of is >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> where I've bought Apps which turn out not to be accessible, Apple >>>>>>> App >>>>>>> Store >>>>>>> has always been prompt to refund the purchase immediately without >>>>>>> question. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Since Apple do not enforce accessibility standards, nor in anyway >>>>>>> whatsoever >>>>>>> offer a method of a disabled user to know whether or not an App is, >>>>>>> or >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> not, accessible in advance of purchase, this seemed to be a most >>>>>>> reasonable >>>>>>> compromise. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> However, in correspondence over the past week with Apple iTunes >>>>>>> support >>>>>>> staff via e-mail in relation to an App I have purchased which is >>>>>>> inaccessible, Apple's stance has been both surprising and frankly >>>>>>> highly >>>>>>> dismissive of our needs and vulnerability when using Apple's App >>>>>>> Store. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have been point blank refused a refund upon this occasion, with >>>>>>> staff >>>>>>> suggesting that I could leave a review for the App which others >>>>>>> could >>>>>>> read, >>>>>>> and or write to the developer. Whilst I understand that the second >>>>>>> suggestion may illicit a positive response, and sometimes it does… >>>>>>> In >>>>>>> many >>>>>>> instances developers haven't even heard of Voice Over let alone >>>>>>> understand >>>>>>> what it does and how they aught to address compliance with Apple's >>>>>>> Accessibility API's. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Of course, the best approach would be for Apple to make compliance >>>>>>> with >>>>>>> its >>>>>>> Accessibility API's a requirement for all new Apps being approved to >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> App >>>>>>> Store, indeed a range of other options would also work, such as; a >>>>>>> discount >>>>>>> on the 30% cut that Apple takes for compliant Apps, a penalty higher >>>>>>> fee >>>>>>> (35% etc) for those that do not comply and perhaps indicating with a >>>>>>> marker >>>>>>> in the App store which Apps do meet the requirements. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Since Apple do none of these, despite so publicly professing to up >>>>>>> holding >>>>>>> and supporting some of the most well implemented accessibility >>>>>>> innovation >>>>>>> and support seen in the industry, it seemed like a fair compromise >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> Apple voluntarily and without complication offered a refund to >>>>>>> customers >>>>>>> who >>>>>>> had accessibility needs where an App proved to be inaccessible. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The situation now, though is that Apple is refusing in an >>>>>>> uncompromising >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> frankly shocking way to refund such purchases, with patronising and >>>>>>> unsympathetic suggestions as to how we, as blind users, go about >>>>>>> reviewing >>>>>>> Apps etc. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I would ask that Apple firstly developed a robust policy in this >>>>>>> regard, >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> secondly, reviews options as to improving the compliance uptake of >>>>>>> developers within their iOS and Mac App Stores. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So that I can convey your response to the ViPhone, Macvisionaries >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> other >>>>>>> Apple Accessibility user forums promptly, I would sincerely >>>>>>> appreciate >>>>>>> your >>>>>>> earliest feedback and response on this issue. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Yours kindly. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Neil Barnfather >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.NeilBarnfather.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Neil Barnfather >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Talks List Administrator >>>>>>> Twitter @neilbarnfather >>>>>>> >>>>>>> TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, as well as an >>>>>>> Apple >>>>>>> iOS, Macintosh and Android accessibility specialist. For all your >>>>>>> accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit >>>>>>> www.talknav.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> URL: - www.talknav.com >>>>>>> e-mail: - serv...@talknav.com >>>>>>> Phone: - +44 844 999 4199 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>> "VIPhone" >>>>>>> Google >>>>>>> Group. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Post a new message to VIPhone by emailing viphone@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Search and view the VIPhone archives by visiting >>>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Reach the VIPhone owner and moderators by emailing >>>>>>> viphone+ow...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Unsubscribe and leave VIPhone by emailing >>>>>>> viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> More VIPhone group options can be found by visiting >>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en. >>>>>>> --- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups >>>>>>> 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Post a new message to VIPhone by emailing viphone@googlegroups.com. Search and view the VIPhone archives by visiting http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/. Reach the VIPhone owner and moderators by emailing viphone+ow...@googlegroups.com. Unsubscribe and leave VIPhone by emailing viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. More VIPhone group options can be found by visiting http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en. --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "VIPhone" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" Google Group. Post a new message to VIPhone by emailing viphone@googlegroups.com. Search and view the VIPhone archives by visiting http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/. Reach the VIPhone owner and moderators by emailing viphone+ow...@googlegroups.com. Unsubscribe and leave VIPhone by emailing viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. More VIPhone group options can be found by visiting http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en. --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "VIPhone" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
