Patrick, What I was referring to there is that according to the e-mail I had from Apple, I have had a total of 26 refunds in 3 years from them for inaccessible apps, this I should note is out of a total purchase history of 347 apps, so I hardly go crying to them every time this happens, and I do not expect 100% accessibility, where though I cannot use it at all, or not enough to do what I want with it, I expect a refund…
importantly 26 times I have had one, no arguing, no discussion, a dear Sir, we're sorry about that, here's your money back. This time they are singing a very different tune… Its as if someone from up on high has sent out an e-mail insisting that this policy be stocked to no matter what. Regards, Neil Barnfather Talks List Administrator Twitter @neilbarnfather TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, as well as an Apple iOS, Macintosh and Android accessibility specialist. For all your accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com URL: - www.talknav.com e-mail: - [email protected] Phone: - +44 844 999 4199 On 11 Sep 2013, at 21:15, Patrick Neazer <[email protected]> wrote: > Hello Christopher and all: > > I had read Neil's original post and all of the subsequent posts written about > this topic. My confusion stemmed from this line of Neil's original post: > > "Whether or not the App Store had an unofficial policy towards customers >> >>>>> with >>>>> accessibility needs or not, is unknown to me. What I am aware of is that >>>>> where I've bought Apps which turn out not to be accessible, Apple App >>>>> Store >>>>> has always been prompt to refund the purchase immediately without >>>>> question." > > Given this statement I was left wondering if there was a policy or not > concerning persons with disabilities. I have not gleaned any such policies > from the email traffic. the policy I am aware of is Apple's no refund policy. > so, is the question that Apple is instituting a policy which it has had all > along and everyone is now subject to it … is apple just behaving capriciously > in regard to access or what? > > Again, as I said before … let me be clear … I am not asking a question that > has a pre rehearsed answer. though I believe that is the question … are we > now being subject to a policy that has applied to everyone else or is there > some falling down on the job by apple. > > I raise this question because this list is an excellent resource for people > not only to learn about the wonderful things Apple products can do it also > serves as a thoughtful forum for how to use such devices responsibly :). even > though sometimes accessibility can be a six syllable word for headache :) > > Again, thank you to anyone whom has contributed to this topic in a > constructive manner. it goes a long way to making this community more vibrant. > > Take good care and I wish you enough. > > Patrick > On Sep 11, 2013, at 2:51 PM, Christopher Chaltain <[email protected]> wrote: > >> I think if you read Neil's original post, it'll become clear. Neil's post is >> still at the bottom of this thread. >> >> Apple's policy is that there are no refunds for App Store purchases. In the >> past, blind customers have been pretty successful in getting refunds from >> Apple for apps that turned out not to be accessible. There have been more >> and more reported cases of Apple not granting such refunds lately and >> sticking to their no refund policy. Neil is asking for this refund policy to >> be put in place and for Apple to do more with developers to ensure their >> apps are accessible. Again, don't let me put words in Neil's mouth and go >> ahead and read his original message to the list. >> >> There have been other discussions about some of the wording used in Neil's >> post. For example, he said he was patronized to but others have felt that >> they didn't see any evidence of this. >> >> On 09/11/2013 02:11 PM, Patrick Neazer wrote: >>> Hello Neil, Joseph, and all: >>> >>> I have been following this thread since its inception and I must confess I >>> am a bit confused by the arc of the conversation. It began with a judgement >>> pertaining to a policy which may or may not exist addressing the refund of >>> money for app purchases. then, a turn was taken to patronizing activity or >>> not. then there was an appeal to the upstanding credentials of an >>> individual and then … well … I lost the trail. >>> >>> I am not attempting to take sides or a stand. I am truly attempting to >>> understand what is actually occurring and what the call to action is. so, >>> in an attempt to clarify my obvious unclear view here is my question … does >>> Apple have a stated policy or procedure which is clearly stated and >>> viewable by the public governing refunds for app purchases and does there >>> policy outline any unique exemptions based on pick the criteria of choice? >>> If that information could be presented as quickly as links to write to >>> apple requesting policy changes and adaptations to business practices that >>> would go a long way I believe to clearing up my apparent confusion and >>> sharpening the discussion in the minds of other members of the community >>> who may be experiencing the same confusion I am experiencing. Of course, I >>> may be the only one confused and if so, anyone reading this whom has been >>> following the thread is free to disregard anything written above. >>> >>> Thank you to anyone who reads this and responds in a constructive manner >>> and high fives to all those who take up the mantle of improving the tools >>> which make the lives of persons with disabilities easier to navigate. >>> >>> Take good care and I wish you enough. >>> >>> Patrick >>> On Sep 11, 2013, at 1:46 PM, Joseph FreeTech <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Well, the suggestion I posted has nothing to do with you personally. >>>> <Smile>. it's a general, unbiased suggestion, and had anyone else made it, >>>> I >>>> would have suggested the same thing. It was another lister who turned this >>>> into a bit of an ad hominem discussion. >>>> >>>> Joseph >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Neil Barnfather - TalkNav" <[email protected]> >>>> To: <[email protected]> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 11:22 AM >>>> Subject: Re: Apple App Store & Refunds for inaccessible Apps >>>> >>>> >>>> Joseph, >>>> >>>> As Sieghard has said, I'm not one for such things, and have been a positive >>>> advocate of our community online and off line for many, many years now… I >>>> would recommend that you check out my web-site; neilbarnfather.com for some >>>> information and this might explain a little more about myself and my work. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Neil Barnfather >>>> >>>> Talks List Administrator >>>> Twitter @neilbarnfather >>>> >>>> TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, as well as an Apple >>>> iOS, Macintosh and Android accessibility specialist. For all your >>>> accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com >>>> >>>> URL: - www.talknav.com >>>> e-mail: - [email protected] >>>> Phone: - +44 844 999 4199 >>>> >>>> On 11 Sep 2013, at 17:13, Joseph FreeTech <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Very smart suggestion. Let's say we all jump on this bandwagon (once >>>>> again), >>>>> and in the end we discover that whoever the original person this happened >>>>> to >>>>> was very nasty and demanding to the Apple customer service employees; >>>>> hence >>>>> the poor service. We're all going to be very embarrassed and not likely to >>>>> take this issue up again in the future. We first need proof of a pattern >>>>> of >>>>> poor service and not just some single person's complaint. >>>>> >>>>> Joseph >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Lisa belville" <[email protected]> >>>>> To: <[email protected]> >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 7:59 AM >>>>> Subject: Re: Apple App Store & Refunds for inaccessible Apps >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hi. Is there any way you could share a letter showing how the Apple >>>>> people >>>>> were patronizing/unhelpful in this regard? I understand the frustration >>>>> of >>>>> not getting a refund for something inaccessible and how a clueless rep >>>>> makes >>>>> this all the more annoying, but IMO there's a difference between >>>>> politely/patiently conveying a policy and being patronizing. Obviously, >>>>> you >>>>> can take out any names in this letter, but it would be good to see an >>>>> example of this attitude. Could it possibly be this particular rep's >>>>> issue >>>>> and not necessarily one of Apple itself? I'm referring to the >>>>> patronizing/unsympathetic attitude and not the policy itself. >>>>> >>>>> Lisa >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> There is a fine line between genius and insanity and that difference is a >>>>> paycheck! >>>>> Lisa Belville >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Neil Barnfather - TalkNav" <[email protected]> >>>>> To: <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>; "The >>>>> Accessible Phones Discussion List" <[email protected]> >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 8:58 AM >>>>> Subject: Apple App Store & Refunds for inaccessible Apps >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The below should prove a concern to all Apple accessibility feature users, >>>>> and I would urge as many of you who can do so, to please write to Apple >>>>> yourselves to express your concern along the same lines where possible… >>>>> ([email protected]). >>>>> >>>>> For years now Apple has led the way in accessibility standards and >>>>> application of methods in interacting with all of its product range. >>>>> Internationally within many disability arenas Apple is celebrated as the >>>>> defacto standard and is widely acknowledged as users preferred platform >>>>> for >>>>> persons with accessibility issues. >>>>> >>>>> Whether or not the App Store had an unofficial policy towards customers >>>>> with >>>>> accessibility needs or not, is unknown to me. What I am aware of is that >>>>> where I've bought Apps which turn out not to be accessible, Apple App >>>>> Store >>>>> has always been prompt to refund the purchase immediately without >>>>> question. >>>>> >>>>> Since Apple do not enforce accessibility standards, nor in anyway >>>>> whatsoever >>>>> offer a method of a disabled user to know whether or not an App is, or is >>>>> not, accessible in advance of purchase, this seemed to be a most >>>>> reasonable >>>>> compromise. >>>>> >>>>> However, in correspondence over the past week with Apple iTunes support >>>>> staff via e-mail in relation to an App I have purchased which is >>>>> inaccessible, Apple's stance has been both surprising and frankly highly >>>>> dismissive of our needs and vulnerability when using Apple's App Store. >>>>> >>>>> I have been point blank refused a refund upon this occasion, with staff >>>>> suggesting that I could leave a review for the App which others could >>>>> read, >>>>> and or write to the developer. Whilst I understand that the second >>>>> suggestion may illicit a positive response, and sometimes it does… In many >>>>> instances developers haven't even heard of Voice Over let alone understand >>>>> what it does and how they aught to address compliance with Apple's >>>>> Accessibility API's. >>>>> >>>>> Of course, the best approach would be for Apple to make compliance with >>>>> its >>>>> Accessibility API's a requirement for all new Apps being approved to the >>>>> App >>>>> Store, indeed a range of other options would also work, such as; a >>>>> discount >>>>> on the 30% cut that Apple takes for compliant Apps, a penalty higher fee >>>>> (35% etc) for those that do not comply and perhaps indicating with a >>>>> marker >>>>> in the App store which Apps do meet the requirements. >>>>> >>>>> Since Apple do none of these, despite so publicly professing to up holding >>>>> and supporting some of the most well implemented accessibility innovation >>>>> and support seen in the industry, it seemed like a fair compromise that >>>>> Apple voluntarily and without complication offered a refund to customers >>>>> who >>>>> had accessibility needs where an App proved to be inaccessible. >>>>> >>>>> The situation now, though is that Apple is refusing in an uncompromising >>>>> and >>>>> frankly shocking way to refund such purchases, with patronising and >>>>> unsympathetic suggestions as to how we, as blind users, go about reviewing >>>>> Apps etc. >>>>> >>>>> I would ask that Apple firstly developed a robust policy in this regard, >>>>> and >>>>> secondly, reviews options as to improving the compliance uptake of >>>>> developers within their iOS and Mac App Stores. >>>>> >>>>> So that I can convey your response to the ViPhone, Macvisionaries and >>>>> other >>>>> Apple Accessibility user forums promptly, I would sincerely appreciate >>>>> your >>>>> earliest feedback and response on this issue. >>>>> >>>>> Yours kindly. >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> >>>>> Neil Barnfather >>>>> >>>>> http://www.NeilBarnfather.com >> >> -- >> Christopher (CJ) >> chaltain at Gmail >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" Google >> Group. >> >> Post a new message to VIPhone by emailing [email protected]. >> >> Search and view the VIPhone archives by visiting >> http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/. >> >> Reach the VIPhone owner and moderators by emailing >> [email protected]. >> >> Unsubscribe and leave VIPhone by emailing >> [email protected]. >> >> More VIPhone group options can be found by visiting >> http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en. >> --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups "VIPhone" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" Google > Group. > > Post a new message to VIPhone by emailing [email protected]. > > Search and view the VIPhone archives by visiting > http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/. > > Reach the VIPhone owner and moderators by emailing > [email protected]. > > Unsubscribe and leave VIPhone by emailing > [email protected]. > > More VIPhone group options can be found by visiting > http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en. > --- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "VIPhone" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" Google Group. Post a new message to VIPhone by emailing [email protected]. Search and view the VIPhone archives by visiting http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/. Reach the VIPhone owner and moderators by emailing [email protected]. Unsubscribe and leave VIPhone by emailing [email protected]. More VIPhone group options can be found by visiting http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en. --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "VIPhone" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
