Pablo this is getting really old. If you are so unhappy sell your phone and get over it.
On 10/20/13, Christopher Chaltain <[email protected]> wrote: > Well, Pablo, we're not going to agree on this. I do not belive and > cannot be convinced that my iPhone is property in the same way that my > house, drive way, or shoe box is property. When I buy an iPhone, I buy > into the Apple ecosystem, I license software from Apple and other > parties and I sign up for services provided by Apple, AT&T and so on. > For example, if it were totally unencumbered property then I should be > able to install any software on it that I want to, but I can't. I can > only install software on it from Appl's App Store. This is the agreement > I'm entering into when I purchase my iPhone. It's not exactly like a set > top box or even a Kindle (which Amazon markets as a means to provide > content and not a piece of property), but it's closer to that than it is > to this flower vase I have on my desk. > > You say that you agreed to the terms and conditions of IOS 6, which > don't include updates to IOS 7, but the way I read the license agreement > for IOS 6, it definitely includes updates and clearly defines IOS > software as including updates and even talks about software residing on > media storage. If you'll forgive the formatting, here's the pertinent > section from the IOS 6 license agreement: > > 1. General. > (a) The software (including Boot ROM code and other embedded software), > documentation, > interfaces, content, fonts and any data that came with your iOS Device > ("Original iOS Software"), > as may be updated or replaced by feature enhancements, software updates > or system restore > software provided by Apple ("iOS Software Updates"), whether in read > only memory, on any > other media or in any other form (the Original iOS Software and iOS > Software Updates are > collectively referred to as the “iOS Software") are licensed, not sold, > to you by Apple Inc. > ("Apple") for use only under the terms of this License. Apple and its > licensors retain ownership of > the iOS Software itself and reserve all rights not expressly granted to > you. > (b) Apple, at its discretion, may make available future iOS Software > Updates for your iOS > Device.... > > I'm not sure what updates Apple would be referring to if they didn't > include updates to IOS including updates to IOS 7. > > Like I said, I don't think we'll be able to change each other's mind. > I'm perfectly OK with two intelligent people coming to two different > conclusions. You view your iPhone as property and that's going to effect > you're interpretation of the license you agreed to. I view my iPhone as > an entry into the Apple ecosystem and it's associated services, and I > realize that to provide those services, Apple may update my software and > may take up more space on my media. I'm responding to your email not to > try to change your mind, but just let you know that I have a different > opinion and a different view of my Iphone and the license I agreed to > when I bought my iPhone and powered it up for the first time. I respect > your opinion, and hopefully you can respect mine. > > On 10/20/2013 07:02 PM, Pablo Morales wrote: >> No Chris. It is not maybe true. It is true. Period. >> I paid for that iPhone, or for that iPad, or for that iDevice, or for >> that home, or for that parking lot. When you are talking about the city >> authority, who wants to install electric wires to my home, and this >> wires are for improve my life, is a good example. Even though it doesn't >> match the case of apple. Let me explain you why. >> 1. An electric wire that will be crossing my property, to share >> electricity with the community, it is something that will help the >> community, and the government, has specific laws for this kind of >> situations, when a property has to be affected in case of constructions >> of improvements to the community. In all these cases, the government, >> local, state, or federal, has to pay something to the owner of that >> property. Now, if the electric installation, is only for me. I have the >> right to say, No, I don't want it. Take your wires, transformer , and >> trucks and get out of my property. Of course, in this case I will be >> living like the in the stone age. With out electricity, with out air >> condition, refrigerator, TV an internet. Fatal. But I have my choice, I >> am able to say, NO. >> 2. If the decision of say no will affect me, it is a risk that I have to >> run. for example, if I like to live like in the stone age, ok, for me is >> cool live like this. I do not have to let the city install wires on my >> home, if I don't want. >> 3. In all cases, the installation of electric wires is with the >> intention of improve life, life quality. Now, what is the price that I >> have to pay for that improvement? >> How much will be that improvement? >> Really the improvement worth the effort? >> In the case of an iPhone 4s, or 5s, the improvement will be good, or >> maybe the effects will not be so bad. But in the case of an iPhone 4, >> the effects would be worse. >> Again, with the case of the wires and trucks and transformer in your >> back yard. If the effects of install a transformater in your back yard, >> will be that you will miss your flowers, that they will cut your apple >> trees, and you will miss the space to place your motorcycle, then the >> effect will not be so good. >> Again, how much I have to pay for the electric wires on my home? >> I really need it? >> Now, and ending. >> In the license agreement, anywhere says something about download data >> without agreement. Every time, when you press the agree button, you are >> accepting the conditions for that IOs version. But in this case, the >> download is not for the IOs that you agreed, it is for the next IOs, >> that you didn't agree yet. >> Here is the issue. Apple downloaded it to our devices, without our >> agreement. When we didn't agree the license agreement of that download. >> We accepted, the conditions of the previous IOs, but not for the IOs >> that apple downloaded without our agreement. Let me be a little bit more >> graphic. When we installed Ios 6.x, we accepted the conditions and >> license of IOs 6, not for IOs 7, or IOs 8, or IOs 2000. Our agreement >> was only for IOs 6. Even though, anywhere in the license agreement, say >> anything about download software, of the following IOs version, IOs that >> we didn't agree yet, download that we never authorized. >> Again. Anywhere in the license agreement, says anything related with the >> following IOs updates, anywhere says that we are accepting that they can >> download data of the following IOs, IOs that we didn't agree yet. It is >> their first mistake. >> Their second mistake, is that they do not provide any way to remove the >> IOs, that we never agree, we agreed the version of IOs that we were >> using, for example 6.x. But we didn't agree the IOs 7 yet, any way, they >> downloaded without our authorization. Apple should provide a way to >> remove the IOs that we do not want to use, IOs that we do not want to >> agree the license agreement. I want to use the IOs that I like,no the >> IOs that apple wants, the IOs that I feel me conftable, and I signed and >> agreed it. But When I bought the iPhone, anywhere says anything about >> that is mandatory use the IOs that they want. No, it doesn't say >> anywhere. Also in the license agreement of each IOs, we accept and agree >> the license of that IOs, not of the following IOs updates. In the United >> States, no body can create contracts that cover future modifications >> without agreement. Every time, when somebody wants to change the rules >> of a contract, they have to participate it for all parts. An Apple >> didn't this at any time. Apple never asked us about download an IOs that >> can not be remove of the memory. It can not be deleted, until we, >> mandatory, install it in our iDevice. >> Apple didn't asked me about IOs updates mandatory, they didn't ask me >> about downloads without agreement, apple never asked about download data >> that is not possible to remove, until we update the IOs. >> So are many mistakes here. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Chaltain" >> <[email protected]> >> To: <[email protected]> >> Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2013 12:39 PM >> Subject: Re: Tim Cook Being Sued over Automatic iOS 7 Updates >> >> >>> I think there are several issues with this. First, you're thinking of >>> your iPhone as property. That may be true assuming you remove IOS from >>> it and don't sign up for any other services on it. When you buy an >>> iPhone you get IOS, you agree to it's terms and conditions and you >>> participate in all of the services that come with the Apple ecosystem. >>> >>> Go into Settings -> General -> About -> Legal -> License and you'll >>> see that you're licensing IOS and not buying it. You'll also see that >>> IOS software includes updates and that it includes space taken up on >>> all media. You'll also see that you have the right to return your >>> iPhone within a certain period if you don't agree with the terms and >>> conditions of this license. >>> >>> You say that Apple is using your resources and your property without >>> your permission. I think by agreeing to the license when you installed >>> IOS 7 or when you purchased your iPhone you are indeed giving Apple >>> permission to use your iPhone for IOS, it's updates and associated >>> services. >>> >>> I don't get your analogy about Bill Gates and his parking lot, but I >>> see things a bit differently. Sure, when I buy a house, I'm buying >>> property. When I sign up for services from my municipality, I don't >>> sue the city for running pipes or electric lines to my house, hanging >>> meters off the side of my house or putting a transformer box in the >>> corner of my lot. >>> >>> I don't see anything in this issue that implies there's a class war >>> going on here between the wealthy and the rest of us. I see it as an >>> issue of definitions. Apple thinks you're licensing the right to use >>> their software and all that that applies, while others think of their >>> iPhone as a piece of property. I guess if people are going to bring >>> law suits over this, the courts will determine where these lines are >>> drawn, but I think this notion of property doesn't take into account >>> the services that are bundled with a device. >>> >>> On 10/19/2013 03:09 AM, Pablo Morales wrote: >>>> Hi Chris. >>>> Well, I don't think that the only who has right to feel this issue of >>>> download the IOs without agreement is a violation is the people with >>>> iPhones or iDevices of 8 or 16 GB. >>>> What could happen if you use the property of Bill Gates to store your >>>> things, without his agreement? >>>> What could happen to you, if you place a car in the Bill gates parking >>>> lot, in his little home in Washington State? >>>> For sure he has a big parking lot, for sure he has a lot of properties. >>>> Now, because of that he should feel that you did is not a illegal >>>> action? >>>> For sure he will take legal actions against you. In the laws of United >>>> States, the property right is one of the fundamentals right in our >>>> constitution, and it is a right in the most countries on the world. >>>> What apple is doing, is using the resources of our devices, downloading >>>> bunches of data, storing it in the memory of our devices, without our >>>> agreement. No body can use your property without your agreement. More >>>> over, is no way to remove the data that apple stored in our devices, >>>> unless we install the operated system. >>>> Try to place a car in the Bill Gate parking lot, and keep it there >>>> until >>>> Bill Gates buy your car. Tell Bill Gates that you will not remove your >>>> car of his parking lot, until he pay you for that car, and tell me what >>>> happen. >>>> The law should be apply for every body, not just with the people who is >>>> not rich. The law is also for the people who is braking rights, not >>>> matter if they are apple, Bill Gates or Chris. >>>> So, the problem here is not if our iDevices are of 8 or 64Gb. The point >>>> here is that apple is violating a right of property, and not providing >>>> a >>>> solution for the people who doesn't want to install IOs what ever >>>> version they release. When I say it, I mean, not providing a way to >>>> remove the data stored in the iDevices. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris H" <[email protected]> >>>> To: <[email protected]> >>>> Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2013 3:09 AM >>>> Subject: Re: Tim Cook Being Sued over Automatic iOS 7 Updates >>>> >>>> >>>> Hope this goes well, but I still believe in the notion that one is not >>>> actually forced into the update; they are just forced to have it >>>> downloaded to their device and take, to some, a considerable amount of >>>> space on their device. I can understand this being an issue for 8 GB >>>> and >>>> 16 GB devices, but for the rest of you, deal with it and maybe you will >>>> install it in your own time. Remember, the update is only downloaded, >>>> not installed, to one's device, since one have to agree to the terms of >>>> conditions not once, but twice. If the update got installed >>>> automatically, then yes I would support the man suing Tim Cook. But not >>>> sure on this case. >>>> >>>> E-mail Facebook and iMessage >>>> [email protected] >>>> >>>> On 19/10/2013 06:57, Jonathan Mosen wrote: >>>>> Given the extensive discussion here about Apple downloading automatic >>>>> updates to devices, I thought some might be interested to know that a >>>>> number of news outlets are reporting that a California man is taking >>>>> Tim Cook to Small Claims Court over this issue. He's asking for $50 in >>>>> compensation and for Apple to address the issue, so he's obviously not >>>>> doing this to get rich. >>>>> It will be very interesting to see where this goes. >>>>> Jonathan Mosen >>>>> Mosen Consulting >>>>> Blindness technology eBooks, tutorials and training >>>>> http://Mosen.org >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> Christopher (CJ) >>> chaltain at Gmail >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" >>> Google Group. >>> >>> Post a new message to VIPhone by emailing [email protected]. >>> >>> Search and view the VIPhone archives by visiting >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/. >>> >>> Reach the VIPhone owner and moderators by emailing >>> [email protected]. >>> >>> Unsubscribe and leave VIPhone by emailing >>> [email protected]. >>> >>> More VIPhone group options can be found by visiting >>> http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en. >>> --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "VIPhone" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>> >> > > -- > Christopher (CJ) > chaltain at Gmail > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" Google > Group. > > Post a new message to VIPhone by emailing [email protected]. > > Search and view the VIPhone archives by visiting > http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/. > > Reach the VIPhone owner and moderators by emailing > [email protected]. > > Unsubscribe and leave VIPhone by emailing > [email protected]. > > More VIPhone group options can be found by visiting > http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en. > --- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "VIPhone" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" Google Group. 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