Actually have had many, many, many times to read the IOS agreement with my iPad giving me reflux! I read it fully. We do not own IOS, and when we agree, twice, we are agreeing to whatever Apple wishes to do with their product. Though technically we own the phone, that is all we own. I also read, because of this thread, Microsoft's agreement, the same. I have a guide dog. Technically, though she belongs to me, unless I ask for outright ownership after a year, the school retains the right to remove her from me if unsafe or if they just decide for some reason I am abusive. I can scream, kick, and cry, but I agreed to the agreement; Now, we do not have to like the fact Apple downloads and sits IOS in the cue taking up valuable space on 16 or 8 GB phones, but according to what I read this guy will fail. Sorry, but the way just about everything works these days. Apple has been doing this for as long as I've had my phone, just smaller programs. We shall see, but for now I have put my 0.05 into the mix, and I may not agree mentally with what they do, but I would rather have my phone so I will accept their terms and live with it.
reggie and Allegra On Oct 20, 2013, at 9:55 PM, Anthony Vece <[email protected]> wrote: I have been trying to stay out of this thread. However; I can only say this! No one person is entitled to everything they think they are entitled to. l Sent from my Verizon iPhone 5s! > On Oct 20, 2013, at 9:47 PM, Christopher Chaltain <[email protected]> wrote: > > Well, Pablo, we're not going to agree on this. I do not belive and cannot be > convinced that my iPhone is property in the same way that my house, drive > way, or shoe box is property. When I buy an iPhone, I buy into the Apple > ecosystem, I license software from Apple and other parties and I sign up for > services provided by Apple, AT&T and so on. For example, if it were totally > unencumbered property then I should be able to install any software on it > that I want to, but I can't. I can only install software on it from Appl's > App Store. This is the agreement I'm entering into when I purchase my iPhone. > It's not exactly like a set top box or even a Kindle (which Amazon markets as > a means to provide content and not a piece of property), but it's closer to > that than it is to this flower vase I have on my desk. > > You say that you agreed to the terms and conditions of IOS 6, which don't > include updates to IOS 7, but the way I read the license agreement for IOS 6, > it definitely includes updates and clearly defines IOS software as including > updates and even talks about software residing on media storage. If you'll > forgive the formatting, here's the pertinent section from the IOS 6 license > agreement: > > 1. General. > (a) The software (including Boot ROM code and other embedded software), > documentation, > interfaces, content, fonts and any data that came with your iOS Device > ("Original iOS Software"), > as may be updated or replaced by feature enhancements, software updates or > system restore > software provided by Apple ("iOS Software Updates"), whether in read only > memory, on any > other media or in any other form (the Original iOS Software and iOS Software > Updates are > collectively referred to as the “iOS Software") are licensed, not sold, to > you by Apple Inc. > ("Apple") for use only under the terms of this License. Apple and its > licensors retain ownership of > the iOS Software itself and reserve all rights not expressly granted to you. > (b) Apple, at its discretion, may make available future iOS Software Updates > for your iOS > Device.... > > I'm not sure what updates Apple would be referring to if they didn't include > updates to IOS including updates to IOS 7. > > Like I said, I don't think we'll be able to change each other's mind. I'm > perfectly OK with two intelligent people coming to two different conclusions. > You view your iPhone as property and that's going to effect you're > interpretation of the license you agreed to. I view my iPhone as an entry > into the Apple ecosystem and it's associated services, and I realize that to > provide those services, Apple may update my software and may take up more > space on my media. I'm responding to your email not to try to change your > mind, but just let you know that I have a different opinion and a different > view of my Iphone and the license I agreed to when I bought my iPhone and > powered it up for the first time. I respect your opinion, and hopefully you > can respect mine. > >> On 10/20/2013 07:02 PM, Pablo Morales wrote: >> No Chris. It is not maybe true. It is true. Period. >> I paid for that iPhone, or for that iPad, or for that iDevice, or for >> that home, or for that parking lot. When you are talking about the city >> authority, who wants to install electric wires to my home, and this >> wires are for improve my life, is a good example. Even though it doesn't >> match the case of apple. Let me explain you why. >> 1. An electric wire that will be crossing my property, to share >> electricity with the community, it is something that will help the >> community, and the government, has specific laws for this kind of >> situations, when a property has to be affected in case of constructions >> of improvements to the community. In all these cases, the government, >> local, state, or federal, has to pay something to the owner of that >> property. Now, if the electric installation, is only for me. I have the >> right to say, No, I don't want it. Take your wires, transformer , and >> trucks and get out of my property. Of course, in this case I will be >> living like the in the stone age. With out electricity, with out air >> condition, refrigerator, TV an internet. Fatal. But I have my choice, I >> am able to say, NO. >> 2. If the decision of say no will affect me, it is a risk that I have to >> run. for example, if I like to live like in the stone age, ok, for me is >> cool live like this. I do not have to let the city install wires on my >> home, if I don't want. >> 3. In all cases, the installation of electric wires is with the >> intention of improve life, life quality. Now, what is the price that I >> have to pay for that improvement? >> How much will be that improvement? >> Really the improvement worth the effort? >> In the case of an iPhone 4s, or 5s, the improvement will be good, or >> maybe the effects will not be so bad. But in the case of an iPhone 4, >> the effects would be worse. >> Again, with the case of the wires and trucks and transformer in your >> back yard. If the effects of install a transformater in your back yard, >> will be that you will miss your flowers, that they will cut your apple >> trees, and you will miss the space to place your motorcycle, then the >> effect will not be so good. >> Again, how much I have to pay for the electric wires on my home? >> I really need it? >> Now, and ending. >> In the license agreement, anywhere says something about download data >> without agreement. Every time, when you press the agree button, you are >> accepting the conditions for that IOs version. But in this case, the >> download is not for the IOs that you agreed, it is for the next IOs, >> that you didn't agree yet. >> Here is the issue. Apple downloaded it to our devices, without our >> agreement. When we didn't agree the license agreement of that download. >> We accepted, the conditions of the previous IOs, but not for the IOs >> that apple downloaded without our agreement. Let me be a little bit more >> graphic. When we installed Ios 6.x, we accepted the conditions and >> license of IOs 6, not for IOs 7, or IOs 8, or IOs 2000. Our agreement >> was only for IOs 6. Even though, anywhere in the license agreement, say >> anything about download software, of the following IOs version, IOs that >> we didn't agree yet, download that we never authorized. >> Again. Anywhere in the license agreement, says anything related with the >> following IOs updates, anywhere says that we are accepting that they can >> download data of the following IOs, IOs that we didn't agree yet. It is >> their first mistake. >> Their second mistake, is that they do not provide any way to remove the >> IOs, that we never agree, we agreed the version of IOs that we were >> using, for example 6.x. But we didn't agree the IOs 7 yet, any way, they >> downloaded without our authorization. Apple should provide a way to >> remove the IOs that we do not want to use, IOs that we do not want to >> agree the license agreement. I want to use the IOs that I like,no the >> IOs that apple wants, the IOs that I feel me conftable, and I signed and >> agreed it. But When I bought the iPhone, anywhere says anything about >> that is mandatory use the IOs that they want. No, it doesn't say >> anywhere. Also in the license agreement of each IOs, we accept and agree >> the license of that IOs, not of the following IOs updates. In the United >> States, no body can create contracts that cover future modifications >> without agreement. Every time, when somebody wants to change the rules >> of a contract, they have to participate it for all parts. An Apple >> didn't this at any time. Apple never asked us about download an IOs that >> can not be remove of the memory. It can not be deleted, until we, >> mandatory, install it in our iDevice. >> Apple didn't asked me about IOs updates mandatory, they didn't ask me >> about downloads without agreement, apple never asked about download data >> that is not possible to remove, until we update the IOs. >> So are many mistakes here. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Chaltain" >> <[email protected]> >> To: <[email protected]> >> Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2013 12:39 PM >> Subject: Re: Tim Cook Being Sued over Automatic iOS 7 Updates >> >> >>> I think there are several issues with this. First, you're thinking of >>> your iPhone as property. That may be true assuming you remove IOS from >>> it and don't sign up for any other services on it. When you buy an >>> iPhone you get IOS, you agree to it's terms and conditions and you >>> participate in all of the services that come with the Apple ecosystem. >>> >>> Go into Settings -> General -> About -> Legal -> License and you'll >>> see that you're licensing IOS and not buying it. You'll also see that >>> IOS software includes updates and that it includes space taken up on >>> all media. You'll also see that you have the right to return your >>> iPhone within a certain period if you don't agree with the terms and >>> conditions of this license. >>> >>> You say that Apple is using your resources and your property without >>> your permission. I think by agreeing to the license when you installed >>> IOS 7 or when you purchased your iPhone you are indeed giving Apple >>> permission to use your iPhone for IOS, it's updates and associated >>> services. >>> >>> I don't get your analogy about Bill Gates and his parking lot, but I >>> see things a bit differently. Sure, when I buy a house, I'm buying >>> property. When I sign up for services from my municipality, I don't >>> sue the city for running pipes or electric lines to my house, hanging >>> meters off the side of my house or putting a transformer box in the >>> corner of my lot. >>> >>> I don't see anything in this issue that implies there's a class war >>> going on here between the wealthy and the rest of us. I see it as an >>> issue of definitions. Apple thinks you're licensing the right to use >>> their software and all that that applies, while others think of their >>> iPhone as a piece of property. I guess if people are going to bring >>> law suits over this, the courts will determine where these lines are >>> drawn, but I think this notion of property doesn't take into account >>> the services that are bundled with a device. >>> >>>> On 10/19/2013 03:09 AM, Pablo Morales wrote: >>>> Hi Chris. >>>> Well, I don't think that the only who has right to feel this issue of >>>> download the IOs without agreement is a violation is the people with >>>> iPhones or iDevices of 8 or 16 GB. >>>> What could happen if you use the property of Bill Gates to store your >>>> things, without his agreement? >>>> What could happen to you, if you place a car in the Bill gates parking >>>> lot, in his little home in Washington State? >>>> For sure he has a big parking lot, for sure he has a lot of properties. >>>> Now, because of that he should feel that you did is not a illegal >>>> action? >>>> For sure he will take legal actions against you. In the laws of United >>>> States, the property right is one of the fundamentals right in our >>>> constitution, and it is a right in the most countries on the world. >>>> What apple is doing, is using the resources of our devices, downloading >>>> bunches of data, storing it in the memory of our devices, without our >>>> agreement. No body can use your property without your agreement. More >>>> over, is no way to remove the data that apple stored in our devices, >>>> unless we install the operated system. >>>> Try to place a car in the Bill Gate parking lot, and keep it there until >>>> Bill Gates buy your car. Tell Bill Gates that you will not remove your >>>> car of his parking lot, until he pay you for that car, and tell me what >>>> happen. >>>> The law should be apply for every body, not just with the people who is >>>> not rich. The law is also for the people who is braking rights, not >>>> matter if they are apple, Bill Gates or Chris. >>>> So, the problem here is not if our iDevices are of 8 or 64Gb. The point >>>> here is that apple is violating a right of property, and not providing a >>>> solution for the people who doesn't want to install IOs what ever >>>> version they release. When I say it, I mean, not providing a way to >>>> remove the data stored in the iDevices. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris H" <[email protected]> >>>> To: <[email protected]> >>>> Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2013 3:09 AM >>>> Subject: Re: Tim Cook Being Sued over Automatic iOS 7 Updates >>>> >>>> >>>> Hope this goes well, but I still believe in the notion that one is not >>>> actually forced into the update; they are just forced to have it >>>> downloaded to their device and take, to some, a considerable amount of >>>> space on their device. I can understand this being an issue for 8 GB and >>>> 16 GB devices, but for the rest of you, deal with it and maybe you will >>>> install it in your own time. Remember, the update is only downloaded, >>>> not installed, to one's device, since one have to agree to the terms of >>>> conditions not once, but twice. If the update got installed >>>> automatically, then yes I would support the man suing Tim Cook. But not >>>> sure on this case. >>>> >>>> E-mail Facebook and iMessage >>>> [email protected] >>>> >>>>> On 19/10/2013 06:57, Jonathan Mosen wrote: >>>>> Given the extensive discussion here about Apple downloading automatic >>>>> updates to devices, I thought some might be interested to know that a >>>>> number of news outlets are reporting that a California man is taking >>>>> Tim Cook to Small Claims Court over this issue. He's asking for $50 in >>>>> compensation and for Apple to address the issue, so he's obviously not >>>>> doing this to get rich. >>>>> It will be very interesting to see where this goes. >>>>> Jonathan Mosen >>>>> Mosen Consulting >>>>> Blindness technology eBooks, tutorials and training >>>>> http://Mosen.org >>> >>> -- >>> Christopher (CJ) >>> chaltain at Gmail >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" >>> Google Group. >>> >>> Post a new message to VIPhone by emailing [email protected]. >>> >>> Search and view the VIPhone archives by visiting >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/. >>> >>> Reach the VIPhone owner and moderators by emailing >>> [email protected]. >>> >>> Unsubscribe and leave VIPhone by emailing >>> [email protected]. >>> >>> More VIPhone group options can be found by visiting >>> http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en. >>> --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "VIPhone" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > -- > Christopher (CJ) > chaltain at Gmail > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" Google > Group. > > Post a new message to VIPhone by emailing [email protected]. > > Search and view the VIPhone archives by visiting > http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/. > > Reach the VIPhone owner and moderators by emailing > [email protected]. > > Unsubscribe and leave VIPhone by emailing > [email protected]. > > More VIPhone group options can be found by visiting > http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en. > --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "VIPhone" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" Google Group. Post a new message to VIPhone by emailing [email protected]. Search and view the VIPhone archives by visiting http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/. Reach the VIPhone owner and moderators by emailing [email protected]. Unsubscribe and leave VIPhone by emailing [email protected]. More VIPhone group options can be found by visiting http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en. --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "VIPhone" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" Google Group. Post a new message to VIPhone by emailing [email protected]. Search and view the VIPhone archives by visiting http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/. Reach the VIPhone owner and moderators by emailing [email protected]. 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