Jojo: "However, if you want speculation, I have some other speculations about who these people are."
I am curious. Please elaborate. On Dec 26, 2012, at 8:38 PM, Jojo Jaro wrote: > The Illuminati satanic occultic pagan group of powerful men and bankers > behind everything in our society, including the President, Congress, Supreme > Court, Federal Reserve, the Smithsonian and other institutions. The > Illuminati is the shadow government that FDR was alluding to and the reason > JFK was assasinated. He spoke too much when he called for the dissolution of > "secret" societies. > > This above is not speculation. > > However, if you want speculation, I have some other speculations about who > these people are. > > > > > Jojo > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "de Bivort Lawrence" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2012 12:54 AM > Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT] Moon God, Dozens of wives, and marriageable age > > > "illimiati? > > > On Dec 26, 2012, at 1:07 AM, Jojo Jaro wrote: > >> Lomax is lying again. I'm not surprised. It is OK for him to lie as long >> as his goal are "honorable" and good for islam and muhammed. >> >> OK, let me ask anybody here. Who has actually seen Obama's Birth >> Certificate in actuality? Not the scanned and altered copy posted on the >> Internet. Not snopes which is a political hack job. If Obama supposedly >> was issued an official Birth Certificate by the State of Hawaii as Lomax >> claims, that originally issued BC should be in the possesion of Obama, >> right? OK, if Obama wants to kill the Birther movement, just show it to >> one, only one, highly respected individual. Let's say, Ron Paul, Mike >> Huckabee, Sarah Palin or the like. Just one well respected Tea Party member >> or a well respected Republican congressman or senator. Let him handle that >> original BC, feel the official seal, look at the folds, and make an official >> scan open to the public and call an open honest press conference. Not a >> white house press conference which is questionable to begin with. This is >> very simple and the Birther movement will die an untimely death and I will >> apologize and tuck my tail between my legs in shame and go away. Lomax lies >> when he says we have seen the official BC. We have not; no one has. What >> we've seen which Lomax claims is the official BC is a scanned photoshop >> file. No one except Obama and alledgedly snopes have seen it. Why? Is >> anybody buying Lomax's argument? It's very simple my friends, if there is an >> officially issued BC, complete with seal, and signature of the official >> representative of the State of Hawaii, just show it. No amount of spin or >> eloquence or tiresome lengthy essay will overcome this very strong argument. >> Just show it. Period. >> >> Funny thing is, the new governor of Hawaii Ambercrombie - a democrat, >> strong supporter of Obama, wanted to silence the birther movement once and >> for all. So, he sought to dig into Obama's vault BC. Guess what? Even he >> can't penetrate the veil of corruption Obama has put up to block access to >> his vault records. Why is there an executive order to block access to >> Obama's vault BC. This is the first time it has ever happened to a sitting >> president. What the heck is wrong with seeing the original vault copy BC? >> If he has alledgedly issued an official copy, what's wrong with verifying it >> with the vault copy? Why does Obama feel the need to go out of his way to >> issue an executive order to block access? >> >> You know, only corrupt and lying leaders find the need to hide their >> history. Obama is a corrupt lying usurper. >> >> >> And Lomax's is really naive to think that only Republicans are concerned >> with this issue. Over 60% of Americans feel Obama should come clean on this >> issue. But of course, the illiminati finds it convenient to forcibly >> reintall their puppet president. And they have found willing sheeple in >> Lomax. LOL...... >> >> >> >> Jojo >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Abd ul-Rahman Lomax" >> <[email protected]> >> To: <[email protected]> >> Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2012 11:41 AM >> Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT] Moon God, Dozens of wives, and marriageable age >> >> >>> At 11:15 AM 12/25/2012, David Roberson wrote: >>>> The recent intense concentration upon religious issues is not very useful >>>> for several reasons. It is apparent that you have a strong Christian >>>> faith and that others within this group favor the Muslim faith to an >>>> equally strong degree. >>> >>> David is addressing this to Jojo. However, there is a difference here. I'm >>> the only Muslim on this list, as far as I know. And I have not used the >>> list to propagandize Islam. But Jojo has used the list to propagandize a >>> whole series of issues that are not actually Christian, per se, but >>> specifically Evangelical Christian tropes, intensely anti-Muslim, in ways >>> that have offended other list members, apparently non-Muslim. These are not >>> necessirly "favoring the Muslim faith," rather, they are, first, noting the >>> inappropriateness of such highly sectarian and abusive expressions here, >>> and, secondly, supporting a list member who is a relatively long-time >>> participant here, who has never used the list to promote Islam. >>> >>> The anti-Muslim material was completely off-topic, not necessary for any >>> discussion here, on-topic or off-topic, except to establish Jojo Jaro's >>> thesis, that I'm a liar, and to him, "Muslim" means "liar." The real thing >>> that is happening is that he argued other topics, like the whole birther >>> myth, kept up an anti-Obama drumbeat, and on the birther issue, >>> specifically, I researched his claims and reported them as being utterly >>> bogus. Not as a prejudgment, but as the result of research. And he could >>> not tolerate that, and, I believe, that's where his attack came from. >>> >>> Essentially, I disagreed with him and provided evidence. That's intolerable >>> to him, so he then attacked with everything he could muster. >>> >>>> This in itself is a good thing and I say nothing against the religious >>>> beliefs of you or anyone else. The world has enough conflict over >>>> religion already and it is of little practical use for us to continue that >>>> tradition here. >>> >>> I"d agree, which is why I'd never have brought any of these issues here. >>> There is nothing wrong with Christian faith, per se, and I certainly hope >>> I've never attacked it. Evangelical Anti-Muslim diatribes are not >>> "Christian faith," they are highly political and very modern >>> interpretations, and often are highly offensive. (I do *not* want to >>> impeach all "Evangelical Christians," only there are web sites that pander >>> to the most ignorant of Christians, selling them books and materials that >>> make these claims about Islam, claims that are highly ineffective in actual >>> evangelical work, i.e., missionary work. Converts from Islam to >>> Christianity are rare, but I knew one. He'd have laughed at the silliness >>> of this stuff. He converted, more or less, as a reaction to a highly >>> abusive father, and, when I had dinner with him at his house, and told him >>> a bit of what I knew about Islam and the sources, he said, "If you'd have >>> been my father, I'd never have converted." >>> >>> I.e., it was very personal. And the views of his father aren't that >>> uncommon among Muslims. Which goes to show? >>> >>> It goes to show, in fact, what the Qur'an says, that people claim religion >>> without having it. We, too often, too many of us, cling to our ignorance >>> instead of to God. >>> >>>> As I said, neither side to this argument appears to be capable of giving >>>> an inch toward a common resolution. For this reason, all I see within the >>>> arguments presented is a repetition of the same disgusting issues. Why >>>> waste so much energy toward this type of discussion when it is known ahead >>>> of time that nothing will change? >>> >>> Actually, I see more. Researching these issues has clarified certain issues >>> for me. It's like the birther thing. It seemed unlikely from the outset, >>> after all, don't the Republicans have, ah, attornies and the like? A birth >>> certificate conspiracy would require a series of state officials to perjure >>> themselves, etc. But, hey, I accept that cold fusion is real, which >>> indicates that sometimes pigs fly. I.e., something we expect is impossible >>> turns out to be possible. But my acceptance of cold fusion is based on >>> evidence, not on wishful thinking, and not on mere assertion, nor on >>> interpretation of isolated, selected evidence. >>> >>> So I gave Jojo Jaro the benefit of the doubt, and looked up his claims. >>> Quite simply, they were highly misleading. Jojo stil repeats the demand >>> that Obama "show the archival certificate." He doesn't mention that Obama >>> actually has done this. Hawaii does not issue the archival certificate >>> routinely. What it issues is a birth certificate, created by computer, from >>> files where the legal information is recorded. The signatures of the >>> attending physician, and other legally inconsequential information, are not >>> on it. Obama had previously requested a certificate from Hawaii, and had >>> shown it, and that routine certificate is adequate for all legal purposes. >>> It's the certification of the State of Hawaii that the birth took place as >>> described, as shown by the archival certificate, which is kept guarded, >>> that's why it is not routinely accessed. >>> >>> After birthers repeatedly demanded that the archival certificate be shown, >>> Obama eventually requested, and got, a copy of the Archival certificate. I >>> believe that this required the permission of the Secretary of State of >>> Hawaii. You normally have to show cause for such. In any case, the State >>> made a copy, and it was certified by an official as a true copy. Which is >>> under penalty of perjury, by the way. That copy was sent to Obama, and it >>> was released in a press conference. That is, the certified copy was shown >>> to reporters, and images of it were provided, and an image was released on >>> the internet. >>> >>> Things got really interesting, then, and for a moment, before I really >>> grasped the whole history and the implications, it had me going. Because it >>> looked like evidence existed that the copy released on the internet was >>> *forged.* I mean, it *really looked like that.* But I kept reading, and I >>> found the explanation, and I know enough about file structures and formats >>> to know that the explanation was valid. And then we were back to the fact >>> that if the archival copy were actually forged, we'd have to have not just >>> one official, but a few, lying under penalty of perjury. And we'd also have >>> the birth record information from Hawaaian newspapers and the rest, >>> consistent with the released birth certificates. >>> >>> The birthers came up with all kinds of "how come" arguments. Supposed >>> anachronisms, and all turned out to be highly misleading. >>> >>> And this is quite relevant to what happens with arguments over cold fusion >>> or free energy research. People get into a fixed position and interpret >>> evidence, selectively, according to what they believe. Certainly the >>> mainstream physics community did this after 1989, with cold fusion. But >>> it's done by many, on all sides. >>> >>> It's not true that "nothing will change." Because *I* change, and others >>> can follow me if they want. I learned about the whole birther movement, I >>> now understand it, what fueled it, what evidence kept them going, all that. >>> And also precisely where they went astray. I didn't know any of this before. >>> >>> Now, with most of the issues Jojo raised about Islam -- and he raises them, >>> I don't, for the most part -- I've discussed most of them before, because I >>> was highly active in Usenet discussions, more than a decade ago. I don't >>> recall the Moon God trope then, though. Certainly the claims about >>> prophetic pedophilia are old, female circumcision has been a popular topic, >>> and the accusation that cutting off the hands of thieves is "barbaric" is >>> likewise old. I really don't have an axe to grind on any of these, because >>> my God is Reality, not Muhammad. >>> >>> Indeed, if evidence were to surface that the Qur'an was written by a >>> nine-year old girl (Ayesha?), a tad precious, but *the manuscript is found, >>> it carbon dates properly, and it is signed, etc.*, *it would not change my >>> faith at all.* So what? If she wrote it, she did a damn good job! >>> >>> The Qur'an describes itself as a "story," and then "the best of stories." >>> What's a story? >>> >>>> Most of the off topic subjects do not result in the amount of conflict >>>> that is seen within the religious type. As you have noted, there has been >>>> awful and unwarranted name calling engaged in and insults which I find >>>> offensive. I would not object if you or anyone else suggests an off topic >>>> subject that encourages discussions as long as they do not result in that >>>> sort of behavior and they were at least related to science. You will find >>>> me objecting if these unrelated threads begin to become too long or cause >>>> serious personal attacks. The recent discussions concerning global >>>> warming came close to that threshold due to the sometimes heated exchanges >>>> that resulted from what some perceive as a world endangering situation. I >>>> can understand the passion since there are some convinced that the fate of >>>> the world is in the balance unless something is done quickly. Of course >>>> you and I fall on the same side of this issue where we seek reasonable, >>>> cautious, and thoughtful preparation. >>> >>> That's not Jojo's position. That's what I suspect you *want* to be Jojo's >>> position. >>> >>> In fact, we could probably find a general consensus here on this >>> proposition: evidence for anthropogenic global warming is widely accepted, >>> but may not be conclusive. Nevertheless, the possibility of massive harm >>> may exist, and therefore public policy should >>> >>> 1. Encourage and support research to verify and more accurately predict the >>> effect of human activity on global climate. >>> 2. Consider measures to reduce the impact of such activity, considering the >>> possible negative impact of such measures, and attempting to balance >>> benefit and risk. >>> >>> But we don't need to debate this here. It is generally off-topic, though >>> not *entirely* so. The relevance is that cold fusion, in partcular, has >>> promise as a non-polluting technology that could, by replacing the use of >>> fossil fuels and dangerous fission power, address and ameliorate global >>> warming. Much of the mention of global warming here is in that context. >>> >>> And then Jojo pops in, calling the discussion "global warmimg propaganda," >>> calling the scientists who express concern "liars," and calling list >>> participants, on very thin evidence, "fanatics." >>> >>> His behavior is the same, regardless of topic, unless it's one he really >>> doesn't care about at all. I makes rare comments on such things, and I >>> suspect that he does such only to attempt to defuse the other-wise >>> completely true claim that trolling is all he does here. >>> >>>> I am attempting to understand the nature of the religious issues that keep >>>> this and other threads like it alive and so passionate. Do both sides of >>>> the argument believe that they must prevail and have the last word? >>> >>> Jojo has declared that he'll keep it up, period, until everyone on the list >>> stops the "off-topic" posting. I was quite willing to leave the last word >>> to Jojo, and said so, and completely stopped responding to him. Flat out, >>> it did not work. I forget how long I waited, but it was enough to see that >>> he'd been lying. He had no intention of stopping, and he would -- and will, >>> if permitted -- continue to monitor the list for any off-topic (Or >>> on-topic) post that he thinks offends his sensibilities. And then he'll >>> turn that thread into a flame war. >>> >>> Sure, if everyone ignores him, that won't happen. There will just be an odd >>> post from him. But I've watched this kind of phenomenon since the 1980s, on >>> the internet. Trolls become expert at attracting comment. Eventually, they >>> figure out what buttons to push. And the list will always have newcomers, >>> who don't realize the situation, and they will dive in, with exactly what >>> the troll wants. >>> >>>> Is God watching the debate and pushing each side forward in a manner that >>>> seems a little less than brotherly? For some reason I do not believe so. >>>> Why don't both parties to this discussion realize that they will never >>>> make headway in convincing the other side and just stop the insanity? I >>>> find both sides equally guilty and plead for each to abandon the >>>> discussion. >>> >>> Good luck. David, you are expressing, here, a Very Bad Habit. You judge >>> guilt. And you do so with shallow knowledge, I suspect. I've written a >>> number of posts here with a detailed history of the Jojo Affair. Were those >>> posts inaccurate? They are not about religion, they are about the history >>> here, and they generally provided links to posts. If they were unfairly >>> chosen, perhaps cherry-picked, anyone could find that out by checking the >>> history themselves. >>> >>> I've seen your kind of claim many, many times. I understand the sentiment, >>> and I sympathize. However, you are judging from a position of ignorance, >>> that's obvious. >>> >>>> Forgive me if I offended anyone as that was not my intent. >>> >>> I'm not offended. I mentioned that I've seen this again and again. You are >>> simply human. I do not blame you, and do not consider you "guilty." I just >>> described what I see and understand, and I could easily be wrong. >>> >>> Notice, below, that Jojo does not accept your position and demands that you >>> call for the "termination of all off-topic threads." There is a reason why >>> he demands this. Do you know what it is? >>> >>> The issue, for myself and others here, is not "off-topic threads." It is >>> gross incivility, trolling for outraged response, a declared intention to >>> retaliate until others shut up, and the abuse of the list for what is >>> actually a corrupt form of religious and political propaganda. >>> >>> "Retaliate" here means, to him, and he's again been explicit about this, >>> "escalate." He will say or do whatever he thinks will be as offensive as >>> possible. It has nothing to do with what he claims he's doing, "answering >>> off-topic propaganda" here. In a couple of occasions, some comment here, >>> off-hand, could be interpreted that way, but the whole Moon God thing did >>> not come from that. He brought the topic here, same with the wives of the >>> prophet and the matter of the Prophet's youngest wife, Ayesha. Nobody was >>> asserting that the Prophet was perfect, here. He bought it all here, and >>> you really ought to consider, if you want to judge this matter, David, why >>> he did this. It's quite clear, really, if you follow the history. >>> >>> But that's a lot of work. Most people won't do that. They just want the >>> problem to Go Away. Can't people just be nice to each other? >>> >>> I get it. I've watched this for years. In person, people can be nice to >>> each other. In a forum where anonymity is easy, *some people will not be >>> nice.* It's just the way it is. I'm a real person, I use a real name, that >>> is, I can very personally be identified, someone who wants to do the work >>> can figure out where I live. Jojo Jaro is anonymous, and really doesn't >>> care about his reputation, etc., and that's obvious. >>> >>> This is not an equal situation, David. I'm fully responsible for what I >>> write. Jojo thinks he's not. He thinks he can hide. >>> >>> In fact, he is responsible, and he can't hide, but *that is a religious >>> position.* Happens to be Qur'an. I know that if I were to lie, there would >>> be no place I could hide from my own corruption. >>> >>> (no more original content below) >>> >>> >>>> Dave >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Jojo Jaro <[email protected]> >>>> To: vortex-l <[email protected]> >>>> Sent: Tue, Dec 25, 2012 4:04 am >>>> Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT] Moon God, Dozens of wives, and marriageable age >>>> >>>> Yes, you are right of course, but It would even be better if all off-topic >>>> threads be terminated and brought to Vortex-B. >>>> >>>> I am doing this is highlight a problem. If you call for the termination >>>> of this thread, you need to call for the termination of all off-topic >>>> threads. I believe that is only fair. For why should the Vortex-L >>>> membership only be subjected to off-topic threads you consider >>>> "interesting". In other words, why are you the arbiter of what off-topic >>>> posts should be discuss or not? They are all off-topic and should be >>>> banished from Vortex-L forever. Isn't that what I've always asked for >>>> only to be insulted, ridiculed and ignored? No offense intended, just >>>> asking your thinking process on this. >>>> >>>> I consider this discussion with Lomax interesting. So, on that aspect, >>>> this thread has as much right to be discussed in Vortex as any other >>>> off-topic thread you consider "interesting". Or are you saying that >>>> because you are an longer time member of Vortex-L, that you opinion >>>> carries more weight than mine? Isn't that what the chronic off-topic >>>> posters are essentially saying? >>>> >>>> It's all or nothing my friend. No off-topic threads or ALL off-topic >>>> threads allowed. Am I not being fair? Is what I'm saying unfair? >>>> >>>> >>>> Jojo >>>> >>>> >>>> PS, Of course, I am ready and prepared to stop all off-topic threads that >>>> I participate in, but only if there is a corresponding commitment from >>>> other chronis off-topic posters to moderate incessant off-topic posts. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: <mailto:[email protected]>David Roberson >>>> To: <mailto:[email protected]>[email protected] >>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2012 1:45 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT] Moon God, Dozens of wives, and marriageable age >>>> >>>> Guys, I would very much prefer it if this thread were to be terminated. It >>>> is apparent that there will never be agreement between the parties >>>> involved in the dispute and highly unlikely that one or the other will >>>> modify his beliefs. Why not just shake hands (electronically of course) >>>> and change the subject to LENR or something else more interesting. >>>> >>>> I suspect that I am not the only one with this opinion. >>>> >>>> Dave >>> >> > >
