Excellent analysis Lomax. You sure pinned it down. Just like the excellent
Jojo is an Alcoholic bullcrap and the Jojo has had a rough childhood fairy
tale. LOL.... Keep up the good work guys.
Bullies will always be bullies.
Jojo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Abd ul-Rahman Lomax" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2012 4:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:List integrity
At 05:06 AM 12/29/2012, Horace Heffner wrote:
On Dec 28, 2012, at 1:55 PM, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax wrote:
These are positions that require integrity and some level of skill,
but mostly the former.
My two cents worth:
The integrity required is the self control to not respond to trolls.
The positions are that of moderator and owner. Moderators and owners have
different reponsibilities from list members, and one of the duties of a
moderator is to *act* with respect to trolls. For a moderator to engage a
troll in debate is a Bad Idea. Rather, a moderator will do one of several
things: warn the troll, on or off-list, put the troll on moderation, or
ban the troll. If others complain about an alleged troll, a responsible
moderator will accept or reject the complaints, not just ignore them.
This list apparently has an owner/moderator whe is absent for extended
periods, and who has then, seeing a problem, acted without warning. I
don't think that is best practice, but *it's his list.*
I suggest that the blame for ridiculously long OT troll induced
threads lies not as much with the initiator as with those who respond
to the troll. If there is banning to be done the respondents should
be banned also.
This is a common opinion among kibbitzers. "Just ignore it." I remember
such opinions about spam. "What's the harm, just delete it!" It's naive.
There is harm from trolling. Trolls become expert at angering and
enraging. People who do not care to engage with trolls may well use
killfiles, or just ignore messages. But that does nothing to stop the
trolling, and sometimes a troll will continue even if nobody responds,
and, sooner or later, someone bites. Someone new thinks there is a real
question or issue to be addressed.
The list archive is public and googleable. A user may have no intention
and not care what people on the list think, and may be playing to Google.
Lists *do* lose members because of trolls. Blaming those who respond is
short-sighted.
It really is up to the list moderator, and, supposedly, this is a
moderated list. If responding to a troll is considered the problem, the
moderator can warn. Though it would be a bit weird. "Trollface can post,
but you may not respond."
Think it through, Horace.
Who is the bigger fool, a troll, or someone who argues with the troll?
Neither one is necessarily a fool. Horace, your thinking *sucks.* Trolls
have a purpose (or it wouldn't be "trolling"). If the troll gets people
upset, whether they are upset directly or from others responding, *that's
the purpose.*
[...] Also, I feel compelled to note the content of vortex has gone down
hill since a bunch of fake email names have showed up. This is a
weak shield for a coward to hide behind, but still it encourages
behavior unbecoming a scientific list. There are many services that
will provide reverse lookup information for email addresses, so it is
ultimately an ineffective ruse. Sometimes merely googleing an email
address will yield the identity. For example, google
([email protected]) quickly yields:
http://www.voiceie.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?
ubb=print_topic;f=1;t=000124
http://tinyurl.com/cre6cfd
which may or may not correctly identify Jojo Jaro as Joseph Hao in
Atlanta.
[...]
In any case it seems to me the response to a troll should be to not
respond, the response to frauds the opposite, to expose every flaw,
and warn off victims.
Wait! Is Jojo a troll or a fraud? If he's a troll, you just violated your
own "should." If he's a fraud -- and he does promote fraudulent memes --
your suggestion does require response.
To bullies the response should be to do what
you want and ignore the bully. The response to truly disruptive and
egregious or unlawful behavior should be to use the tools provided by
ISPs. The response to bad behavior under fake identities is perhaps
to expose the identity - which has worked well here in the past to
eliminate nonsense from a guy from down under if I recall. 8^)
Is it a fake identity?
Jojo responded to this mail.
As for Joseph Hao, he is a good friend. We used to work together on some
free energy projects most notably on some HHO and Veg Oil/ Biodiesel
projects and we were co-workers for a while. We went to graduate school
together in San Diego State (MS Computer Science) a long time ago. This
was a common email we used on all our free energy projects correspondence.
He was the one who first subscribed this account to Vortex-L I have
been exclusively using this email since I left the country. Yes, he is
in Atlanta and he is in fact a CCIE RS and is studying for his CCIE Voice.
The story is not fully consistent with the record. Look at it on the face:
jthao is Joseph Hao, yes. Jthao would be internet-sophisticated, as would
Jojo. So they would share a hotmail account? Why? Surely they would
realize the risks!
Now, given that they are sharing, they are *really good friends*, Jojo has
decided to "tell the truth" about a bunch of vicious killers, in his mind.
Plus, of course, the Illuminati who are vastly powerful. So he uses his
friend's name and hotmail account to do it. I hope I don't have any
"friends" like this, who would hide under my name to provoke and taunt
people believed to be vicious killers.
Has he told his "friend"? Does Joseph Hao even know about this? If he
does, and he consents, *he is reponsible for it.*
There is a lot of information that comes up with the search Horace
suggested. I'd actually done this many months ago, and all that I could
see of relevance is that the Jojo and jthao writings elsewhere seemed to
normally be more high-functioning than what we see here. But Jojo's
writings here also vary in quality. Sometimes his spelling is atrocious,
sometimes accurate.
The jthao account shows up as indicating a residence in the Phillipines,
in some posts. That could be consistent with what Jojo says, that he "left
the country." It could be consistent with the name. That makes his
obsession with American politics all the more strange, but, in a way, more
understandable. It could explain why he couldn't deal with the issue of
what an Executive Order is, and he might actually think that the American
President can just order everyone around. Non-Americans think that,
sometimes. Reading with *full understanding* might be difficult for him.
Anyone sufficiently libelled by him could file an action in a court with
jurisdiction over Microsoft, and penetrate the veil of secrecy involved in
using a hotmail account. I'm not about to do this, because I'm already
putting more time into this than it's worth.
There are headers with his mail that identify, for Microsoft, the mail
origin, i.e., the actual ISP that he uses to access the internet. That,
through the ISP, if they cooperate (and many will), identifies the
computer he used to access. Unless he uses some very sophisticated tricks,
that will identify where he is (and the tricks would be visible to someone
who knows mail protocols, but they would further conceal his location). It
can become quite a game of cat and mouse, and it's not worth playing
except as a hobby or for those with serious interests at stake, such as
governmental interests with wikileaks.
Jojo says that Joseph Hao subscribed here. That may be true, but the first
post here was vintage Jojo, the style is unmistakeable. Sun, 22 Jan 2012
22:11:08 +0800.
On the other hand, we have a message on this list from Joseph Hao
<[email protected]>. Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 00:21:42 +0800. The style is
distinct from Jojo's. Other responses in the same thread purport to be
from Jojo Jaro <[email protected]>, but look to me like the same style.
This does look like a shared account. When Joseph Hao wanted to pesonally
write the list, starting a thread, he changed the user name to Joseph Hao,
and signed his post. Jojo, presumably, changed it back. The same account
was obviously used elsewhere. When Joseph responded again, he did not
change the user name again.
Certainly not good practice, and we can, here, see why. Sometimes your
friends will abuse the connection. If the account were something like
[email protected], it could make sense. But one with his
personal name in it?
Googling "Joseph Hao [email protected]" comes up with a Joseph Hao with
that email address purporting to be located in the Philippines. Undated.
Joseph Hao appears to have lived in Atlanta in 2004, that's the
information Jojo refers to. Without spending much more time, I can't
disentangle this. It would seem to be unlikely, however, that Hao is still
"studying for his CCIE Voice" more than eight years later.
