Thank you for your response, Jojo. Very enlightening.
On Jan 1, 2013, at 1:47 AM, Jojo Jaro wrote: > Yes, I believe Genesis and the Bible to be literraly true. (Not that I > believe Jesus was a chicken because he said he would like to gather Jerusalem > under his wings.) I believe it is true because I have verified it to be true. > > Beleive it or not, I was and am an engineer. I studied science. And I have > found that the Bible is a science book. Not that it is exclusiviely a book > about science, but it does contain enough science for one to verify. If the > Bible had said that the Earth was a big plate standing on the backs of 4 > elephants, then you would have a valid reason to call it a fairy tale. But > every statement made by the Bible about science has been found to be true. > After having read it over 29 times, I have still to encounter a statement in > the Bible that science has found to be categorically false. > > I challenge you or anyone to prove me wrong on this. But do it one at a time > so that I can respond properly to it. Do not cut and paste a blog from an > Atheist web site. I won't have time or the capability to respond to that in > a meaningful way. > > > > > > > Jojo > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "de Bivort Lawrence" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2013 12:35 AM > Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT] Moon God, Dozens of wives, and marriageable age > > > Thanks, Jojo, I appreciate your response to my query. > > It seems to me that you have faith that Genesis is literally accurate. How > did you find your way to this faith? Was it difficult? Easy? How unshakeable > is your faith? > > Again,thank you for your response. > > > On Dec 30, 2012, at 11:09 PM, Jojo Jaro wrote: > >> OK, since you asked, do not call me a troll by answering this. >> >> >> Genesis chapter 6 is the source of this. This passage is the reason why God >> destroyed the Earth with the flood. >> >> 6 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, >> and daughters were born unto them, >> >> 2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and >> they took them wives of all which they chose. >> >> 3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he >> also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. >> >> 4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when >> the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to >> them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. >> >> 5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that >> every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. >> >> 6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved >> him at his heart. >> >> 7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of >> the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the >> air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. >> >> 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. >> >> >> >> >> >> The Hebrew word translated as Giants is Nephilim. >> >> The Hebrew words for Sons of God literally means "sons of Elohim". In the >> Old Testament, only direct creations of God are referred to as Sons of God. >> Only Adam, Eve and Angels are direct creations of God; but Eve is not a >> son, so that leaves Adam and Angels. So, clearly this passage refers to >> fallen angels mating with human females producing giants and mighty men of >> renown. Men of renown means these men are known by the various histories of >> the region. >> >> Throughout history and in every culture - Romans, Greeks, Assyrian, >> Babylonian, Persian, Sumerian, etc, there is mythology relating to gods >> mating with human women producing extraordinary hybrids. The Sumerians have >> their Annunaki. The Greeks with their pantheon of gods which the Romans >> adopted wholesale more or less. In these mythology, there is Hercules, half >> god half man with great size and strength. There is Perseus, half god son >> of Zeus. There is Atlas, half god, big and strong depicted as carrying the >> Earth on his back. These are the men that are renown. >> >> Google the video "Return of the Nephilim" by Chuck Missler. Chuck used be >> in the Defense Industry. He was an insider. In his videos, he tries to >> document the link between Nephilims and modern UFOs. Watch it and judge for >> yourself. >> >> Of course, there are also other videos when you google "UFOs", "Nephilim", >> "Annunaki", "NWO", "illuminati", etc. Some good some crazy. Judge for >> yourself. >> >> There are books about this subject. I do not play video games so I do not >> know if there are. I'm pretty this is as this is a common theme the >> illuminati wants to desensitize people on. >> >> >> >> >> >> Jojo >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "de Bivort Lawrence" <[email protected]> >> To: <[email protected]> >> Sent: Monday, December 31, 2012 1:19 AM >> Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT] Moon God, Dozens of wives, and marriageable age >> >> >> Thanks. This is fascinating. >> >> What are the sources for this information? "There is reason to believe that >> fallen angels are trying to breed with humans to create a hybrid race. The >> Bible called these hybrids Nephilims. They were universal during the days of >> Noah. They interbred with human women to give birth to giant hybrids - >> Hercules, Persues, Atlas etc. They interbreed with normal animal to give >> birth to hideous dinasaurs and loathsome creatures." >> >> What are the sources for this information, and for the rest of your >> statements in this email? Books? >> >> Are there any movies or video games that depict these themes? >> >> >> >> >> On Dec 27, 2012, at 11:12 PM, Jojo Jaro wrote: >> >>> OK, since you asked. Don't say I am trolling. >>> >>> >>> There is reason to believe that fallen angels are trying to breed with >>> humans to create a hybrid race. The Bible called these hybrids Nephilims. >>> They were universal during the days of Noah. They interbred with human >>> women to give birth to giant hybrids - Hercules, Persues, Atlas etc. They >>> interbreed with normal animal to give birth to hideous dinasaurs and >>> loathsome creatures. This was the primary reason why God had to wipe out >>> the entire race of life on Earth with a global flood. Fallen angels and >>> demons wanted to subvert the plan of God by corrupting man. If human DNA >>> are all tainted with demonic DNA, the messiah, which has to come as a man >>> (pure human) can not come. They would have effectively thwarted God's plan >>> for redemption. >>> >>> The recent spate of UFO activity and the more blatant abduction of women >>> seems to support this speculation. In almost all UFO abduction experience, >>> what is the most common theme that these abductees are experiencing? It >>> almost always has to do with the human reproductive system. Women's eggs >>> are removed, men's sperms are collected, women are impregnated, etc. If >>> these were truly biological beings - as in ET, why the preoccupation with >>> the reproductive system . >>> >>> When we study lower lifeforms, are we preoccupied with how they reproduce? >>> Yes, we study their reproduction but we also study their other systems. >>> This is the normal behavior of a curious higher being studying a lower >>> lifeform. But these UFO's are almost always studying human reproductive >>> systems. Curious. >>> >>> There is reason to believe that these malevolent spiritual entities are >>> trying to breed a super race of humans. Abduction have been going on for >>> thousands of years and it is reasonable to speculate that they have >>> successfully breed hybrids almost indistinguishable from normal humans. >>> These hybrids have now risen to power worldwide and have infiltrated all of >>> our institutions. These hybrids are the powers behind the Illuminati. So >>> powerful and so entrenched are these hybrids that even presidents fear >>> crossing them. They sent a clear lesson to all future presidents when they >>> assasinated JFK. These illuminata satan worshippers and their hybrid >>> handlers are the shadow government parasites bleeding our society dry. >>> >>> No one can oppose these hybrids. They can drive you mad with a thought - >>> telepaths or they can squeeze your heart - Telekenetic. You can not oppose >>> TEPs and TEKs. Only God and Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit is holding >>> them at bay. When the Holy Spirit is removed from this Earth at the >>> Rapture of Christians, the floodgates of hell will literally open and these >>> demonic hybrids will consume all life. >>> >>> This my friends is what you are looking forward to if you are not a saved >>> believer. >>> >>> >>> Jojo >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "de Bivort Lawrence" >>> <[email protected]> >>> To: <[email protected]> >>> Sent: Friday, December 28, 2012 5:52 AM >>> Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT] Moon God, Dozens of wives, and marriageable age >>> >>> >>> Jojo: "However, if you want speculation, I have some other speculations >>> about who these people are." >>> >>> I am curious. Please elaborate. >>> >>> >>> On Dec 26, 2012, at 8:38 PM, Jojo Jaro wrote: >>> >>>> The Illuminati satanic occultic pagan group of powerful men and bankers >>>> behind everything in our society, including the President, Congress, >>>> Supreme Court, Federal Reserve, the Smithsonian and other institutions. >>>> The Illuminati is the shadow government that FDR was alluding to and the >>>> reason JFK was assasinated. He spoke too much when he called for the >>>> dissolution of "secret" societies. >>>> >>>> This above is not speculation. >>>> >>>> However, if you want speculation, I have some other speculations about who >>>> these people are. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Jojo >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "de Bivort Lawrence" >>>> <[email protected]> >>>> To: <[email protected]> >>>> Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2012 12:54 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT] Moon God, Dozens of wives, and marriageable age >>>> >>>> >>>> "illimiati? >>>> >>>> >>>> On Dec 26, 2012, at 1:07 AM, Jojo Jaro wrote: >>>> >>>>> Lomax is lying again. I'm not surprised. It is OK for him to lie as >>>>> long as his goal are "honorable" and good for islam and muhammed. >>>>> >>>>> OK, let me ask anybody here. Who has actually seen Obama's Birth >>>>> Certificate in actuality? Not the scanned and altered copy posted on the >>>>> Internet. Not snopes which is a political hack job. If Obama supposedly >>>>> was issued an official Birth Certificate by the State of Hawaii as Lomax >>>>> claims, that originally issued BC should be in the possesion of Obama, >>>>> right? OK, if Obama wants to kill the Birther movement, just show it to >>>>> one, only one, highly respected individual. Let's say, Ron Paul, Mike >>>>> Huckabee, Sarah Palin or the like. Just one well respected Tea Party >>>>> member or a well respected Republican congressman or senator. Let him >>>>> handle that original BC, feel the official seal, look at the folds, and >>>>> make an official scan open to the public and call an open honest press >>>>> conference. Not a white house press conference which is questionable to >>>>> begin with. This is very simple and the Birther movement will die an >>>>> untimely death and I will apologize and tuck my tail between my legs in >>>>> shame and go away. Lomax lies when he says we have seen the official BC. >>>>> We have not; no one has. What we've seen which Lomax claims is the >>>>> official BC is a scanned photoshop file. No one except Obama and >>>>> alledgedly snopes have seen it. Why? Is anybody buying Lomax's >>>>> argument? It's very simple my friends, if there is an officially issued >>>>> BC, complete with seal, and signature of the official representative of >>>>> the State of Hawaii, just show it. No amount of spin or eloquence or >>>>> tiresome lengthy essay will overcome this very strong argument. Just show >>>>> it. Period. >>>>> >>>>> Funny thing is, the new governor of Hawaii Ambercrombie - a democrat, >>>>> strong supporter of Obama, wanted to silence the birther movement once >>>>> and for all. So, he sought to dig into Obama's vault BC. Guess what? >>>>> Even he can't penetrate the veil of corruption Obama has put up to block >>>>> access to his vault records. Why is there an executive order to block >>>>> access to Obama's vault BC. This is the first time it has ever happened >>>>> to a sitting president. What the heck is wrong with seeing the original >>>>> vault copy BC? If he has alledgedly issued an official copy, what's wrong >>>>> with verifying it with the vault copy? Why does Obama feel the need to >>>>> go out of his way to issue an executive order to block access? >>>>> >>>>> You know, only corrupt and lying leaders find the need to hide their >>>>> history. Obama is a corrupt lying usurper. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> And Lomax's is really naive to think that only Republicans are concerned >>>>> with this issue. Over 60% of Americans feel Obama should come clean on >>>>> this issue. But of course, the illiminati finds it convenient to >>>>> forcibly reintall their puppet president. And they have found willing >>>>> sheeple in Lomax. LOL...... >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Jojo >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Abd ul-Rahman Lomax" >>>>> <[email protected]> >>>>> To: <[email protected]> >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2012 11:41 AM >>>>> Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT] Moon God, Dozens of wives, and marriageable age >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> At 11:15 AM 12/25/2012, David Roberson wrote: >>>>>>> The recent intense concentration upon religious issues is not very >>>>>>> useful for several reasons. It is apparent that you have a strong >>>>>>> Christian faith and that others within this group favor the Muslim >>>>>>> faith to an equally strong degree. >>>>>> >>>>>> David is addressing this to Jojo. However, there is a difference here. >>>>>> I'm the only Muslim on this list, as far as I know. And I have not used >>>>>> the list to propagandize Islam. But Jojo has used the list to >>>>>> propagandize a whole series of issues that are not actually Christian, >>>>>> per se, but specifically Evangelical Christian tropes, intensely >>>>>> anti-Muslim, in ways that have offended other list members, apparently >>>>>> non-Muslim. These are not necessirly "favoring the Muslim faith," >>>>>> rather, they are, first, noting the inappropriateness of such highly >>>>>> sectarian and abusive expressions here, and, secondly, supporting a list >>>>>> member who is a relatively long-time participant here, who has never >>>>>> used the list to promote Islam. >>>>>> >>>>>> The anti-Muslim material was completely off-topic, not necessary for any >>>>>> discussion here, on-topic or off-topic, except to establish Jojo Jaro's >>>>>> thesis, that I'm a liar, and to him, "Muslim" means "liar." The real >>>>>> thing that is happening is that he argued other topics, like the whole >>>>>> birther myth, kept up an anti-Obama drumbeat, and on the birther issue, >>>>>> specifically, I researched his claims and reported them as being utterly >>>>>> bogus. Not as a prejudgment, but as the result of research. And he could >>>>>> not tolerate that, and, I believe, that's where his attack came from. >>>>>> >>>>>> Essentially, I disagreed with him and provided evidence. That's >>>>>> intolerable to him, so he then attacked with everything he could muster. >>>>>> >>>>>>> This in itself is a good thing and I say nothing against the religious >>>>>>> beliefs of you or anyone else. The world has enough conflict over >>>>>>> religion already and it is of little practical use for us to continue >>>>>>> that tradition here. >>>>>> >>>>>> I"d agree, which is why I'd never have brought any of these issues here. >>>>>> There is nothing wrong with Christian faith, per se, and I certainly >>>>>> hope I've never attacked it. Evangelical Anti-Muslim diatribes are not >>>>>> "Christian faith," they are highly political and very modern >>>>>> interpretations, and often are highly offensive. (I do *not* want to >>>>>> impeach all "Evangelical Christians," only there are web sites that >>>>>> pander to the most ignorant of Christians, selling them books and >>>>>> materials that make these claims about Islam, claims that are highly >>>>>> ineffective in actual evangelical work, i.e., missionary work. Converts >>>>>> from Islam to Christianity are rare, but I knew one. He'd have laughed >>>>>> at the silliness of this stuff. He converted, more or less, as a >>>>>> reaction to a highly abusive father, and, when I had dinner with him at >>>>>> his house, and told him a bit of what I knew about Islam and the >>>>>> sources, he said, "If you'd have been my father, I'd never have >>>>>> converted." >>>>>> >>>>>> I.e., it was very personal. And the views of his father aren't that >>>>>> uncommon among Muslims. Which goes to show? >>>>>> >>>>>> It goes to show, in fact, what the Qur'an says, that people claim >>>>>> religion without having it. We, too often, too many of us, cling to our >>>>>> ignorance instead of to God. >>>>>> >>>>>>> As I said, neither side to this argument appears to be capable of >>>>>>> giving an inch toward a common resolution. For this reason, all I see >>>>>>> within the arguments presented is a repetition of the same disgusting >>>>>>> issues. Why waste so much energy toward this type of discussion when it >>>>>>> is known ahead of time that nothing will change? >>>>>> >>>>>> Actually, I see more. Researching these issues has clarified certain >>>>>> issues for me. It's like the birther thing. It seemed unlikely from the >>>>>> outset, after all, don't the Republicans have, ah, attornies and the >>>>>> like? A birth certificate conspiracy would require a series of state >>>>>> officials to perjure themselves, etc. But, hey, I accept that cold >>>>>> fusion is real, which indicates that sometimes pigs fly. I.e., something >>>>>> we expect is impossible turns out to be possible. But my acceptance of >>>>>> cold fusion is based on evidence, not on wishful thinking, and not on >>>>>> mere assertion, nor on interpretation of isolated, selected evidence. >>>>>> >>>>>> So I gave Jojo Jaro the benefit of the doubt, and looked up his claims. >>>>>> Quite simply, they were highly misleading. Jojo stil repeats the demand >>>>>> that Obama "show the archival certificate." He doesn't mention that >>>>>> Obama actually has done this. Hawaii does not issue the archival >>>>>> certificate routinely. What it issues is a birth certificate, created by >>>>>> computer, from files where the legal information is recorded. The >>>>>> signatures of the attending physician, and other legally inconsequential >>>>>> information, are not on it. Obama had previously requested a certificate >>>>>> from Hawaii, and had shown it, and that routine certificate is adequate >>>>>> for all legal purposes. It's the certification of the State of Hawaii >>>>>> that the birth took place as described, as shown by the archival >>>>>> certificate, which is kept guarded, that's why it is not routinely >>>>>> accessed. >>>>>> >>>>>> After birthers repeatedly demanded that the archival certificate be >>>>>> shown, Obama eventually requested, and got, a copy of the Archival >>>>>> certificate. I believe that this required the permission of the >>>>>> Secretary of State of Hawaii. You normally have to show cause for such. >>>>>> In any case, the State made a copy, and it was certified by an official >>>>>> as a true copy. Which is under penalty of perjury, by the way. That copy >>>>>> was sent to Obama, and it was released in a press conference. That is, >>>>>> the certified copy was shown to reporters, and images of it were >>>>>> provided, and an image was released on the internet. >>>>>> >>>>>> Things got really interesting, then, and for a moment, before I really >>>>>> grasped the whole history and the implications, it had me going. Because >>>>>> it looked like evidence existed that the copy released on the internet >>>>>> was *forged.* I mean, it *really looked like that.* But I kept reading, >>>>>> and I found the explanation, and I know enough about file structures and >>>>>> formats to know that the explanation was valid. And then we were back to >>>>>> the fact that if the archival copy were actually forged, we'd have to >>>>>> have not just one official, but a few, lying under penalty of perjury. >>>>>> And we'd also have the birth record information from Hawaaian newspapers >>>>>> and the rest, consistent with the released birth certificates. >>>>>> >>>>>> The birthers came up with all kinds of "how come" arguments. Supposed >>>>>> anachronisms, and all turned out to be highly misleading. >>>>>> >>>>>> And this is quite relevant to what happens with arguments over cold >>>>>> fusion or free energy research. People get into a fixed position and >>>>>> interpret evidence, selectively, according to what they believe. >>>>>> Certainly the mainstream physics community did this after 1989, with >>>>>> cold fusion. But it's done by many, on all sides. >>>>>> >>>>>> It's not true that "nothing will change." Because *I* change, and others >>>>>> can follow me if they want. I learned about the whole birther movement, >>>>>> I now understand it, what fueled it, what evidence kept them going, all >>>>>> that. And also precisely where they went astray. I didn't know any of >>>>>> this before. >>>>>> >>>>>> Now, with most of the issues Jojo raised about Islam -- and he raises >>>>>> them, I don't, for the most part -- I've discussed most of them before, >>>>>> because I was highly active in Usenet discussions, more than a decade >>>>>> ago. I don't recall the Moon God trope then, though. Certainly the >>>>>> claims about prophetic pedophilia are old, female circumcision has been >>>>>> a popular topic, and the accusation that cutting off the hands of >>>>>> thieves is "barbaric" is likewise old. I really don't have an axe to >>>>>> grind on any of these, because my God is Reality, not Muhammad. >>>>>> >>>>>> Indeed, if evidence were to surface that the Qur'an was written by a >>>>>> nine-year old girl (Ayesha?), a tad precious, but *the manuscript is >>>>>> found, it carbon dates properly, and it is signed, etc.*, *it would not >>>>>> change my faith at all.* So what? If she wrote it, she did a damn good >>>>>> job! >>>>>> >>>>>> The Qur'an describes itself as a "story," and then "the best of >>>>>> stories." What's a story? >>>>>> >>>>>>> Most of the off topic subjects do not result in the amount of conflict >>>>>>> that is seen within the religious type. As you have noted, there has >>>>>>> been awful and unwarranted name calling engaged in and insults which I >>>>>>> find offensive. I would not object if you or anyone else suggests an >>>>>>> off topic subject that encourages discussions as long as they do not >>>>>>> result in that sort of behavior and they were at least related to >>>>>>> science. You will find me objecting if these unrelated threads begin >>>>>>> to become too long or cause serious personal attacks. The recent >>>>>>> discussions concerning global warming came close to that threshold due >>>>>>> to the sometimes heated exchanges that resulted from what some perceive >>>>>>> as a world endangering situation. I can understand the passion since >>>>>>> there are some convinced that the fate of the world is in the balance >>>>>>> unless something is done quickly. Of course you and I fall on the same >>>>>>> side of this issue where we seek reasonable, cautious, and thoughtful >>>>>>> preparation. >>>>>> >>>>>> That's not Jojo's position. That's what I suspect you *want* to be >>>>>> Jojo's position. >>>>>> >>>>>> In fact, we could probably find a general consensus here on this >>>>>> proposition: evidence for anthropogenic global warming is widely >>>>>> accepted, but may not be conclusive. Nevertheless, the possibility of >>>>>> massive harm may exist, and therefore public policy should >>>>>> >>>>>> 1. Encourage and support research to verify and more accurately predict >>>>>> the effect of human activity on global climate. >>>>>> 2. Consider measures to reduce the impact of such activity, considering >>>>>> the possible negative impact of such measures, and attempting to balance >>>>>> benefit and risk. >>>>>> >>>>>> But we don't need to debate this here. It is generally off-topic, though >>>>>> not *entirely* so. The relevance is that cold fusion, in partcular, has >>>>>> promise as a non-polluting technology that could, by replacing the use >>>>>> of fossil fuels and dangerous fission power, address and ameliorate >>>>>> global warming. Much of the mention of global warming here is in that >>>>>> context. >>>>>> >>>>>> And then Jojo pops in, calling the discussion "global warmimg >>>>>> propaganda," calling the scientists who express concern "liars," and >>>>>> calling list participants, on very thin evidence, "fanatics." >>>>>> >>>>>> His behavior is the same, regardless of topic, unless it's one he really >>>>>> doesn't care about at all. I makes rare comments on such things, and I >>>>>> suspect that he does such only to attempt to defuse the other-wise >>>>>> completely true claim that trolling is all he does here. >>>>>> >>>>>>> I am attempting to understand the nature of the religious issues that >>>>>>> keep this and other threads like it alive and so passionate. Do both >>>>>>> sides of the argument believe that they must prevail and have the last >>>>>>> word? >>>>>> >>>>>> Jojo has declared that he'll keep it up, period, until everyone on the >>>>>> list stops the "off-topic" posting. I was quite willing to leave the >>>>>> last word to Jojo, and said so, and completely stopped responding to >>>>>> him. Flat out, it did not work. I forget how long I waited, but it was >>>>>> enough to see that he'd been lying. He had no intention of stopping, and >>>>>> he would -- and will, if permitted -- continue to monitor the list for >>>>>> any off-topic (Or on-topic) post that he thinks offends his >>>>>> sensibilities. And then he'll turn that thread into a flame war. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sure, if everyone ignores him, that won't happen. There will just be an >>>>>> odd post from him. But I've watched this kind of phenomenon since the >>>>>> 1980s, on the internet. Trolls become expert at attracting comment. >>>>>> Eventually, they figure out what buttons to push. And the list will >>>>>> always have newcomers, who don't realize the situation, and they will >>>>>> dive in, with exactly what the troll wants. >>>>>> >>>>>>> Is God watching the debate and pushing each side forward in a manner >>>>>>> that seems a little less than brotherly? For some reason I do not >>>>>>> believe so. Why don't both parties to this discussion realize that >>>>>>> they will never make headway in convincing the other side and just stop >>>>>>> the insanity? I find both sides equally guilty and plead for each to >>>>>>> abandon the discussion. >>>>>> >>>>>> Good luck. David, you are expressing, here, a Very Bad Habit. You judge >>>>>> guilt. And you do so with shallow knowledge, I suspect. I've written a >>>>>> number of posts here with a detailed history of the Jojo Affair. Were >>>>>> those posts inaccurate? They are not about religion, they are about the >>>>>> history here, and they generally provided links to posts. If they were >>>>>> unfairly chosen, perhaps cherry-picked, anyone could find that out by >>>>>> checking the history themselves. >>>>>> >>>>>> I've seen your kind of claim many, many times. I understand the >>>>>> sentiment, and I sympathize. However, you are judging from a position of >>>>>> ignorance, that's obvious. >>>>>> >>>>>>> Forgive me if I offended anyone as that was not my intent. >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm not offended. I mentioned that I've seen this again and again. You >>>>>> are simply human. I do not blame you, and do not consider you "guilty." >>>>>> I just described what I see and understand, and I could easily be wrong. >>>>>> >>>>>> Notice, below, that Jojo does not accept your position and demands that >>>>>> you call for the "termination of all off-topic threads." There is a >>>>>> reason why he demands this. Do you know what it is? >>>>>> >>>>>> The issue, for myself and others here, is not "off-topic threads." It is >>>>>> gross incivility, trolling for outraged response, a declared intention >>>>>> to retaliate until others shut up, and the abuse of the list for what is >>>>>> actually a corrupt form of religious and political propaganda. >>>>>> >>>>>> "Retaliate" here means, to him, and he's again been explicit about this, >>>>>> "escalate." He will say or do whatever he thinks will be as offensive as >>>>>> possible. It has nothing to do with what he claims he's doing, >>>>>> "answering off-topic propaganda" here. In a couple of occasions, some >>>>>> comment here, off-hand, could be interpreted that way, but the whole >>>>>> Moon God thing did not come from that. He brought the topic here, same >>>>>> with the wives of the prophet and the matter of the Prophet's youngest >>>>>> wife, Ayesha. Nobody was asserting that the Prophet was perfect, here. >>>>>> He bought it all here, and you really ought to consider, if you want to >>>>>> judge this matter, David, why he did this. It's quite clear, really, if >>>>>> you follow the history. >>>>>> >>>>>> But that's a lot of work. Most people won't do that. They just want the >>>>>> problem to Go Away. Can't people just be nice to each other? >>>>>> >>>>>> I get it. I've watched this for years. In person, people can be nice to >>>>>> each other. In a forum where anonymity is easy, *some people will not be >>>>>> nice.* It's just the way it is. I'm a real person, I use a real name, >>>>>> that is, I can very personally be identified, someone who wants to do >>>>>> the work can figure out where I live. Jojo Jaro is anonymous, and really >>>>>> doesn't care about his reputation, etc., and that's obvious. >>>>>> >>>>>> This is not an equal situation, David. I'm fully responsible for what I >>>>>> write. Jojo thinks he's not. He thinks he can hide. >>>>>> >>>>>> In fact, he is responsible, and he can't hide, but *that is a religious >>>>>> position.* Happens to be Qur'an. I know that if I were to lie, there >>>>>> would be no place I could hide from my own corruption. >>>>>> >>>>>> (no more original content below) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Dave >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: Jojo Jaro <[email protected]> >>>>>>> To: vortex-l <[email protected]> >>>>>>> Sent: Tue, Dec 25, 2012 4:04 am >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT] Moon God, Dozens of wives, and marriageable age >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Yes, you are right of course, but It would even be better if all >>>>>>> off-topic threads be terminated and brought to Vortex-B. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I am doing this is highlight a problem. If you call for the >>>>>>> termination of this thread, you need to call for the termination of all >>>>>>> off-topic threads. I believe that is only fair. For why should the >>>>>>> Vortex-L membership only be subjected to off-topic threads you consider >>>>>>> "interesting". In other words, why are you the arbiter of what >>>>>>> off-topic posts should be discuss or not? They are all off-topic and >>>>>>> should be banished from Vortex-L forever. Isn't that what I've always >>>>>>> asked for only to be insulted, ridiculed and ignored? No offense >>>>>>> intended, just asking your thinking process on this. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I consider this discussion with Lomax interesting. So, on that aspect, >>>>>>> this thread has as much right to be discussed in Vortex as any other >>>>>>> off-topic thread you consider "interesting". Or are you saying that >>>>>>> because you are an longer time member of Vortex-L, that you opinion >>>>>>> carries more weight than mine? Isn't that what the chronic off-topic >>>>>>> posters are essentially saying? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It's all or nothing my friend. No off-topic threads or ALL off-topic >>>>>>> threads allowed. Am I not being fair? Is what I'm saying unfair? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jojo >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> PS, Of course, I am ready and prepared to stop all off-topic threads >>>>>>> that I participate in, but only if there is a corresponding commitment >>>>>>> from other chronis off-topic posters to moderate incessant off-topic >>>>>>> posts. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: <mailto:[email protected]>David Roberson >>>>>>> To: <mailto:[email protected]>[email protected] >>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2012 1:45 PM >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT] Moon God, Dozens of wives, and marriageable age >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Guys, I would very much prefer it if this thread were to be terminated. >>>>>>> It is apparent that there will never be agreement between the parties >>>>>>> involved in the dispute and highly unlikely that one or the other will >>>>>>> modify his beliefs. Why not just shake hands (electronically of >>>>>>> course) and change the subject to LENR or something else more >>>>>>> interesting. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I suspect that I am not the only one with this opinion. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dave >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> > >
