Robin, I think we are on the same frequency in this quest. It appears that any non linear process that can be coaxed into converting the kinetic energy due to thermal motion into potential energy of some type will achieve the goal.
The second law must be based upon linear behavior of gasses, etc. and may fail to cover non linear processes on occasion leading to violations. Of course Maxwell's demon is clearly non linear since it is either completely open or closed depending upon the magnitude of the kinetic energy of the incoming particle. I suppose you could consider it related to an electrical diode acting upon a series combination of DC and AC voltage. You only see the value of the combination once it exceeds a fixed total voltage magnitude. Another interesting comparison is that the waveform ahead of the diode is clipped and reduced in RMS magnitude when the diode conducts. Here I am assuming that the voltage source has a finite resistance that is comparable to the load resistance following the series connected diode. The evaporation process appears to have exactly this behavior. And, it leads to cooling of the remaining liquid. I do not follow your second example. The LED example seems to demonstrate a method which allows for the elevation of kinetic energy into potential energy of electron orbitals which can then be released to pass freely out of the system, taking some of the kinetic energy away, leading to overall cooling of the remaining material. These processes appear to be violations of the laws. Dave -----Original Message----- From: mixent <[email protected]> To: vortex-l <[email protected]> Sent: Fri, Sep 25, 2015 6:59 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:CONVERTING LENR HEAT INTO ELECTRICITY WITH UNIQUE AESOP ENERGY ENGINES In reply to David Roberson's message of Fri, 25 Sep 2015 15:40:33 -0400: Hi Dave, [snip] >This discussion is interesting. Perhaps the existing thermodynamic laws apply mainly to black body types of interactions when radiation is associated. Clearly the light emitted by an LED is not of that nature. It is narrow band radiation at a level that is much higher in these bands than would be expected according to the temperature of the device. > >Also, the DC input power contributes a significant portion of the net radiation output in a direct conversion process. This behavior is very unlike most of the systems used to derive the thermodynamic laws. Perhaps there really does exist at least this one loophole that can be breached. > >A clear understanding of exactly how the random thermal motion within the LED can be converted into light at this level of efficiency would be desirable. Could it be that the random peaks in thermal energy that follow a Gaussian distribution are the key? Near the thermal peak one might find that a little help from the DC source is sufficient to cause electrons to jump into higher orbitals. If enough of these occur in a short period of time a population inversion may come into existance which would then drain the excess energy by positive feedback and subsequent radiation pulses. The excess energy would have to come from that random thermal motion that was tapped leading to cooling of the device. > >Is this an example of an atomic Maxwell's demon? It sounds a little like what I have tried to describe previously with evaporation. When water evaporates, only the fastest molecules make the grade, which essentially comprises a Maxwell demon. This process converts the kinetic energy of the fast molecules into potential energy, and leaves the slow molecules behind in the liquid, which is then cooler as a consequence. (We call a common example "wind chill".) By jumping to a higher orbital, in your description here above, kinetic energy is also converted into potential energy. I have in the past also suggested a setup where a plastic with an attached charged ligand that was free to rotate, was placed in a resonant chamber with a magnetic field which would convert microwaves into DC, thus preventing a two way flow of energy. That also constitutes a form of Maxwell demon, as the chamber would appear as a cold sink to the material. The chamber is tuned to resonate at the same frequency as the rotation frequency of the ligand. The general purpose of this setup is to convert random motion into ordered motion (thermal energy into DC). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
