I have not seen any evidence that the pumps are controlled by anything but a manual adjustment on the front. Why have 22 set at 100% and 2 set at 50% flow rate in that group of pumps? Also, Rossi did not utilize any form of automatic pump control during his earlier demonstrations.
Show me a document originating from Rossi or IH that describes a form of automatic fluid level control for this system. Engineer48 is speculating, as he points out, and we can not use his diagram as anything definitive. AA, do you see the data cables needed to control each pump? I suppose that they may be hidden in the same location as the power cables for the pumps. Without additional proof, there is no valid reason to assume that these pumps are connected to a fluid level control loop and therefore no proof that the individual ECAT components are not filled with hot water. I hope there is a control loop keeping the fluid level low enough to ensure that only vapor escapes the devices into the customer service line, but this can not be established by the information I have seen. What absolute proof do you have that we can use to set aside this concern? Do you honestly believe that "good grief" is a reasonable answer to a valid question? I was expecting a carefully considered answer that did not contain unsupported assumptions enclosed in sarcasm. How are you going to feel if it turns out that the pumps were actually running in a manual mode without level control? I am not attempting to be confrontational as you may believe, but instead want to understand whether or not Jed and many others are correct in their belief that the demonstration is seriously flawed. If they are right then there must be an explanation as to why the meters are being faked out. Dave -----Original Message----- From: a.ashfield <[email protected]> To: vortex-l <[email protected]> Sent: Sun, Aug 21, 2016 2:30 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Interesting Steam Calculation Good grief. Of course there is control or there would be no point in having all those pumps. On 8/21/2016 9:12 AM, a.ashfield wrote: "a pump by itself does not regulate the level of the water. " what is the point of having all those digitally controlled pumps if there is no control? On 8/21/2016 12:55 AM, David Roberson wrote: Thanks for the information. But AA, a pump by itself does not regulate the level of the water. There must be some form of active level feedback applied in order for this to occur. If no level sensing and feedback is used then either the water totally fills up the device or it gets boiled off when subject to a constant input flow. The question can be clarified by finding a direct reference to level sensing in Rossi's documentation in which case the pumps would need to be controlled by software that cycles each of them on and off, or possibly adjusts the flow dynamically. Can you point to such a document. A picture of a pump is not adequate proof unless it is specified to have a limited maximum pressure that would prevent the boiling point of the water from reaching significantly above 102 C if the ECAT device fills up. I am sitting on the fence with respect to assuming that the test results are measured accurately. Jed and others have presented a fairly convincing arguement that all is not well. You and others appear to be 100% convinced that Rossi is correct. If Jed and allies are right then science must be able to explain what is erroneous regarding the calibrated meter measurements. I am seeking that explanation to fill in the blanks in the event that they are found correct. To me that is the scientific method. Let us put my latest hypothesis to rest which will enhance the proof that Rossi is on the proper track. Is there any evidence of water level control feedback that we can locate? I will look carefully at Engineer48 photos on Ecatworld per your suggestion. Dave -----Original Message----- From: a.ashfield <[email protected]> To: vortex-l <[email protected]> Sent: Sat, Aug 20, 2016 8:10 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Interesting Steam Calculation If you look at the my original reference showing a link to photos of Engineer48 on Ecatworld, it shows the many precision pumps for each Tiger that maintain the correct water level in the reactors. AA On 8/20/2016 3:40 PM, David Roberson wrote: Could you show me a reference to level gauges in each of the devices? I do not recall seeing one so far. Dave -----Original Message----- From: a.ashfield <[email protected]> To: vortex-l <[email protected]> Sent: Sat, Aug 20, 2016 3:00 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Interesting Steam Calculation That would mean the Tiger E-Cats would have to be completely flooded. But the level gauges don't show that. Why not suggest pixie dust? On 8/20/2016 1:51 PM, David Roberson wrote: Today I made an interesting calculation that some may find relevant to the ongoing discussions. According to steam tables, the following could be possible, assuming that I did not make a mistake in my calculations. Assume you have 1kg of water inside a solid container at 130 C and 39.2 psi absolute. Then you place a restriction device that allows all of the liquid to eventually escape. Some of the liquid will immediatly flash into vapor while most of the 1 kg remains in the liquid form as it exits the restriction. If you assume that the resulting mixture ends up at 102 C and 15.75 psi absolute then it is possible to calculate the amount of vapor and liquid that is present at that location. The internal energy of the initial liquid at 130 C is 546.388 kj/kg which in this case yields 546.388 thousand joules. I am assuming that this same amount of energy remains within the liquid and vapor combintation of the lower temperature and pressure stream. When I solved the equation relating the quality of the mixture to the various heat contents I determined that there would be .053 kg or vapor and .947 kg of liquid water at the output. On first glance, this result suggests that it should be easy to separate the water from the steam, but actually calculating the two volumes makes that not so evident. The volume of the vapor would be .053 kg * 1.565 cubic meters per kg = .0826 cubic meters. The volume of the liquid water would be .947 kg* .001045 cubic meters per kg = .000989 cubic meters. Using the above numbers it appears that you would have 83.488 times as much vapor by volume as liquid. This is quite a large ratio which suggests that it might well be possible to mistake a stream of mass with this consistency as consisting of only vapor. Especially if a visual technique were used. I am not saying that this calculation reveals the source of the Rossi test confusion, but that perhaps it might open discussions that have not been considered so far. I do recall that on earlier demonstrations that the temperature within the ECATs was reported to be in the range of 130 C. Perhaps some of our mathematically inclined vortex residents can take a few moments to verify that my assumptions and calculations make sense. Dave
