I guess I hit a touchy subject with this one. Rossi's device came up because his heat gain(6) is so low relative to, as example, DGT(>20). It has always been my desire to have that number upped significantly and I would assume that most of us feel the same way. The heat pump issue arouse just because of the relatively low gain performance demonstrated thus far and there was no attempt on my part to claim that Rossi was using anything resembling heat pump technology. I was totally unaware that anyone really has made any assumptions otherwise with a straight face. If someone actually believes that LENR is some strange form of heat pump then let them bring it up for debate. Open discussion of any issue would be good for us all.
By the way, I do know how heat pumps operate so the lecture is not necessary. Remember, comparing numbers is not making assumptions about processes. The 1 hour time frame suggested as adequate to prove self sustaining of the reaction is absurd. If super accurate instrumentation were available to measure temperatures at many internal points and power input could be extremely well determined then that might be correct. The modest changes in device state during that time frame might be projected accurately and the issue would be settled. But we all know that this is not what happened. Sloppy measurement techniques were used and too much uncertainty still exists which allows the skeptics plenty of leeway. Why is it so difficult to extend the self sustaining period to a few days? Virtually all of the skeptics would dissipate after that demonstration and the world would know the LENR is proven just as we realize. Does anyone honestly believe that a self sustaining test of 1 week duration is not more definitive than one of an hour? Why not just make a 1 minute test instead? Also, I can understand why some skeptics, perhaps including NASA, would like to extend the self sustaining period. A little insurance is not a bad thing. The device demonstrated by Thane Heins is clearly not a heat pump. It, like a heat pump as compared, will never be able to self power. Both may appear as if excess energy appears at the output or into some form of load, but it is merely an illusion. The reference to Rossi and DGT was coincidental and the only reason was to compare numbers and not processes. I am sorry if anyone considers open discussion disruptive. My understanding is that this mailing list is concerned with unusual processes and subjects. It is likely that vort members will find reasons to disagree on occasions and we should make every attempt to understand the other members point of view instead of launching negative personal attacks. Dave -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothw...@gmail.com> To: vortex-l <vortex-l@eskimo.com> Sent: Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:45 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:Thane Heins continues with his bold claims David Roberson <dlrober...@aol.com> wrote: Jed, I know it is not a heat pump. Then why did you bring up that subject? Do you not understand that a heat pump moves heat, and must cool down a body as much as it heats up another body? I do not understand why you mentioned heat pumps and their highest COP if you know that is not relevant. People often do say that cold fusion devices might be heat pumps. These people are always wrong, for the reasons I gave. If you understand these reasons why did you confuse the issue by saying this? The operation of the ECAT after death needs to be extended indefinitely (or at least for days) in order to prove beyond doubt that it is possible. No, it does not. Given these materials, the weight and surface area of the device, the surface temperature and the cooling curves, maintaining a stable high temperature for 1 hour proves the issue beyond any rational doubt. An object with that surface area at that temperature is producing kilowatts of heat. After an hour the gadget would be lukewarm and after 4 hours it would be stone cold with any conventional source of stored heat or chemical heat. You do not need any instruments to be sure of this. Direct sensation of the heat and first principle physics are all the proof anyone can ask for. Running for several days or several years would not prove anything that 1 hour does not already prove. People who demand several days of operation move the goal posts down the field, out of the stadium, and into the next county. It is like demanding that researchers sell commercial products before you believe the effect is real. As we all know, some skeptics have made that demand. With that we move from rational, science-based discussion to never-never land. Please note that this topic is mainly concerning Thane Heins and his device and the Rossi discussion is a minor point of consideration. No one has ever believed that Rossi is a heat pump designer! Again I ask: why did you talk about heat pumps if you know this? What was your point? I am asking seriously. Frankly, I consider it disruptive and kind of strange that someone who understands Carnot's law would mention heat pumps in this discussion. Why?!? Do you suspect the Thane Heins device is a heat pump? You mentioned Rossi specifically. - Jed
