The experiments that these guys performed are quite remarkable if substantiated. I expect that some very strange things happen when large amounts of energy and fields converge upon a small device. It is not clear that this particular information is going to help me in my quest.
There seems to be a rather wide gap between the LENR type environments that we are researching and this interesting monster. They might even have generated ball lightning, which if true, is a wonderful thing to explore. I hope to stick with the safer systems and avoid those that might cause serious bodily harm. Dave -----Original Message----- From: Axil Axil <janap...@gmail.com> To: vortex-l <vortex-l@eskimo.com> Sent: Tue, Jun 26, 2012 1:59 pm Subject: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]: Dave’s Demon and Radiation Free LENR http://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0101/0101089.pdf In exploding foils in water experiments that are close to what LeClair is doing, a heavy element is transmuted into multiple resultant elements; some lighter and some much heaver. Only heavy ion collisions in the many gigavolts kinetic energy range could come close to producing similar types of transmutations. >From the text of the reference: The main regularities experimentally observed during the transformation of chemical elements can be summarized as follows. 1. The transformation occurs predominantly with even-even isotope, which leads to a notable distortion of the original isotope content. 2. Experiments with foils made of different chemical elements have shown that they transform into individual spectra of elements, and the statistical weight of each element is determined by concrete conditions. 3. For the set of chemical elements resulted from the transformation there is a minimal difference D Åb between the binding energy of the original element and the mean over spectrum binding energy of the formed elements. The difference of binding energies DEb = Eorig - Eform (with account of the real isotope ratios) calculated from mass-spectrometric measurements in different tests, falls within the range DEb < 0.1 MeV/atom, which is clearly due to mass-spectrometric measurements errors. 4. No increase in the binding energy difference DEb as a function of the transformation fraction of the original chemical element has been detected. 5. All nuclei of chemical elements resulted from the transformation are in the ground (non-excited) state, i.e. no appreciable radioactivity has been found. If you find these types of experiment credible, how do they reflect your current thinking? Cheers: Axil On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 12:31 PM, David Roberson <dlrober...@aol.com> wrote: Maybe the phrase "gently drifting proton" is a little mild. I would expect to see an extremely rapid acceleration of the proton once it becomes under the influence of the strong force. If there is no demon to hold it back and gently absorb the energy then the full binding energy is imparted upon the poor little particle. The relative magnitude of this energy imparted upon the proton should be within the range of that applied to its neutral friend (Neutron) that gets a free pass through the coulomb barrier. In the case of nickel 62 I note that this is about 6.84 MeV as it transforms into nickel 63 before the time delayed beta decay. I believe I understand Mill's model of the hydrogen atom where the orbits of the electrons are more tightly bound to the proton than with normal hydrogen. Even in this case the energy is quantized and can be tied with a one to one basis to the orbital jumps. Why would we not envision a proton as emitting photon radiation (gammas) in a similar manner? The strong force coupled with a much larger mass than an electron still might result in substantial acceleration. Is there any reason to believe that no radiation is emitted by the proton during this brief period? Another important question that I have no answer for is the amount of time that elapses between the time the proton enters the nucleus and the emission of the gamma radiation. If the delay is virtually nil then additional support is given to the possible proton source of this energy. An emission of energy by an excited nucleus should appear as a probability event with a measurable half life. Unfortunately, I can imagine how difficult it would be to make such a measurement under the extreme conditions present. Does anyone know if this experiment has been performed and verified? The beta decay events are at a snails pace and clearly not of the same category. The LeClair reactor is a unique device that I prefer to keep at a safe distance. If what they suggest is true then all types of unusual events are possible. It reminds me of a linear proton accelerator that blasts atoms to bits. I am still seeking the coupling mechanism that ties nearby free protons into one large web so that they can share some of the binding energy. I picture the extreme acceleration associated with the strong force being tempered by the nearby coupled protons. The reduction in acceleration of the proton entering the nucleus drops the emitted photon frequency in proportion and imparts the remaining energy upon the shared web. Of course if such a shared process exists then it is likely that energy can be coupled from sister protons to enable one particle to breach the coulomb barrier as required. Hot fusion processes appear to be independent of each other to a much greater degree. The density of the plasma is many times lower than in our LENR case so components are further apart by necessity. The high temperatures required in order for the kinetic energy to be sufficient to breach the coulomb barrier must tend to generate caos. There is little wonder that we experience behavior that is far removed from the current physics understanding. Thanks Axil for the interesting thoughts and I hope that we can engage additional members of the group to participate and offer their insight. I hope to continue my research into this fascinating field and value the inputs of our members. Dave -----Original Message----- From: Axil Axil <janap...@gmail.com> To: vortex-l <vortex-l@eskimo.com> Sent: Tue, Jun 26, 2012 4:07 am Subject: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]: Dave’s Demon and Radiation Free LENR In my supposition in all cases, I see the nucleus standing naked and vulnerable to the gently drifting proton. In the Rossi reaction, the lack of radioactive unstable nuclei tells me that the proton has little or no kinetic energy when it enters a nickel nucleus. This implies that the coulomb barrier has been removed long before the penetration of the nucleus by the proton. On the other hand in the LeClair reactor, the proton has a good deal of kinetic energy due to the speed of the shock wave on which the catalyst rides. The stuff riding on the high speed shock wave hits the naked and exposed nucleus with great force. This creates endothermic element transmutation beyond iron together with a large variety of heavy radioactive isotopes from a detritus of highly energetic through naked nuclear bits and pieces produced by the energetic shock wave collision with the substrate. Cheers: Axil On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 3:12 AM, David Roberson <dlrober...@aol.com> wrote: Excellent comments Robin. I have a couple of items to discuss further. ---------- >Behavior of my mental experimental device begins with a proton removed a long distance from the nucleus such that the force measured on my demon is virtually zero. As I turn the screw the proton approaches the nucleus and the force measured between is mostly coulomb since it operates over vast distances as compared to the strong force. Very tiny amounts of electromagnetic energy are released >>Not at his point. Up till now, energy is being consumed. There is no energy release (as you point out yourself here below ;) . ---------- I mentioned the tiny amount of electromagnetic energy to make the suggestion that any acceleration of the proton with its positive charge during the process would generate a minute amount. I was pretty sure that someone would point that out if I did not include it. Thanks for supporting my actual supposition. --------------- >The most important aspect of this procedure is that all of the energy can be released in the form of mechanical energy and there is no release of gamma radiation whatsoever. >>Here you make the assumption that the final product will be Copper in it's ground state. In reality that may not be the case. Furthermore, depending on the Nickel isotope that you start out with the final Copper nucleus may be subject to beta decay (a slow process), resulting in longer term radioactivity. (e.g. Cu61). --------------- I am in fact assuming that a nickel isotope that results in the production of a stable copper isotope is used by my demon. I intentionally chose one that did not undergo beta decay for the reason you suggest. ---------------- >The mass loss associated with binding energy is converted entirely into a safe form that cannot be detected by a radiation detection device. I contend that this might explain why LENR reactions of some types behave in this manner. Of course a demon of this nature is not going to be available, but perhaps the implication is that all we require is a strong coupling mechanism that retards the motion of the proton as it makes it path into the nucleus of the target atom. The electric fields associated with the electron cloud could be a factor, as could other electromagnetic couplings. >>Nothing is going to retard the proton once the nuclear force gets it's claws into it. However as I have previously suggested, a fast particle can carry the energy away. E.g. an electron or a proton, or even multiple protons (from a condensate). -------------------- Robin, I am trying to understand the origination of the gamma radiation in this case which apparently does not show up in many of the actual LENR devices. In my vision I see the rapidly accelerating proton under the influence of the strong force emitting the gamma. Is it well understood what the actual radiating mechanism consists of? If the rapidly accelerating charge is the source then we could slow down that progression with the external coupling to other protons, etc. That is what I am seeking. ------------------- >Of course, the nucleus itself would tend to slow down any proton heading in >its direction until the strong force intervenes. >>Note however that it's only after this point that excess energy becomes available - as your demon has demonstrated. ---------------------- I was attempting to cover the radiation that results from the rapid deceleration of the proton as its kinetic energy is being converted into barrier energy. This is a much slower process than that due to the strong force once the proton is in that region. I do not think that a significant amount of electromagnetic radiation is emitted during the coulomb controlled phase of the real life processes. There most likely is some energy emitted but nothing as compared to the rapid acceleration due to the strong force. In real life I expect the decelerating and then accelerating proton to radiate energy throughout the entire process. Net energy must be given to the proton externally unless it is moving very fast with enough kinetic energy to exceed the barrier requirement by itself. I believe that the hot fusion process assumes that the kinetic energy of the proton would be sufficient to overcome the potential barrier energy. As you are suggesting, energy is required to be absorbed by the proton-nucleus system until the strong force dominates and begins to return more energy than was absorbed. This is true for my demon system but an interesting thought just occurred to me. If this were a hot fusion reaction, all of the energy could be contained within the proton-nucleus combination before the collision begins. There might be sufficient kinetic energy between the two reactants to exceed the coulomb barrier ahead of time. Under these conditions the kinetic energy is converted into potential energy as the two approach. Sufficient energy conversion would allow the proton to be grabbed by the strong force. I wonder if it is a general condition that LENR reactions do not have the coulomb barrier energy stored in the form of kinetic energy while hot fusion does? I can see where that might make a substantial difference in behavior. ---------------------- >>The proton doesn't radiate anything. Once it has formed a Copper nucleus, that new nucleus is in an excited state, and it is this Copper nucleus which radiates (unless it has already managed to dispose of the energy via one or more fast particles). ---------------------- My demon would convert the strong force induced binding energy into mechanical energy. It is well trained. Why would an extremely rapidly accelerating proton not radiate electromagnetic energy? I know that the strong force operates over a short distance, but surely it is not infinitesimal. This type of process appears to be an ideal candidate for the source of gamma radiation as the proton enters the nucleus. I can also see where the proton might be moving at an extremely high velocity due to strong force acceleration as it strikes the nucleus. Perhaps that imparts a large amount of energy to the nucleus that then must escape by other means. We have a pretty good calculation of the net amount of energy that is released by the mass loss but I guess the question is how can this energy be distributed to other things such as the particles you mention or my demon. What determines how the energy escapes? ----------------------- >I have been searching for any type of mechanism that would reduce the high energy radiation associated with nuclear reactions and maybe this can be achieved since my demon suggests that a retardation effect would allow the exact same amount of energy to be released over a longer period of time and thus at lower frequencies. >>Talk to Fran, though I fail to understand how his mechanism would allow a *single* high energy photon emitted from the nucleus turn into *multiple* low energy photons observed externally. ---------------------- This is my dilemma as well. I think that a mechanism must be found that prevents the high energy gammas in the first place. If the radiation is from the proton entering the nucleus we have a chance. If the occurs after that point then it is hard to imagine how it can be tamed. I am pursuing the proton radiation mechanism since we know that the gammas are not escaping the devices and I can not picture a foolproof method of stopping them after they exist. ----------- >The lack of beta plus radiation prevents him from loosing energy due to neutrino escape and the dangerous levels of 511 keV gammas associated with the positron-electron annihilation. Some of the puzzle pieces seem to fit nicely into place. >>Someone mentioned previously on Vortex that Rossi later said that it wasn't a nuclear reaction. Can anyone point to Rossi's statement in that regard? ------------- I saw that statement earlier when Rossi was concerned about his device being considered a nuclear reactor of some type. Apparently that would make it much harder to certify for home use. The manufacturing of a reactor also had serious complications that are avoided by his statement. ------------ Dave
