At 10:01 PM 12/27/2012, Jojo Jaro wrote:
What are you suggesting lomax? That age is uncertain whether she
was 9 or 10. Either way, what muhammed practiced was abhorrent and retrograde.
No, *Jojo* is abhorrent and retrograde. That's because he's now. What
Muhammad did wasn't abhorrent, because nobody hated it. Then. It
wasn't retrograde, either, it was not odd or strange or unusual.
If A'isha has had her first menstrual cycle, does that mean she is a
sexually mature woman.
Yes. That's what the word means. It does not mean that no further
maturation can occur. It means that she is capable of becoming a mother.
Lomax seems to believe this and asking vorticians to swallow this.
No, I don't care what Vorticians think, but I'm not seeing any
support, here, for Jojo's viciousness.
OK, show of hands, which of us with daughters 9 or 10 years old,
that have had their first mentrual cycle that we would consider to
be sexually mature.
Hand up. That is, if I knew that my daugher had her first period, I'd
know that she was sexually mature. That has consequences.
For pete's sake. These little girls do not have fully developed
mammary glands yet, and Lomax thinks they are sexually mature. This
is the corruption of islam for all to see.
The glands will work if she gets pregnant. Jojo is making silly
arguments. The issue is not today's girls, and the conditions girls
face today. The issue is Jojo's claim that was was done *then* was
"abhorrent and retrograde" *then*.
And we don't now the age. Some sources conclude that Ayesha was much older.
OK, show of hands, which of the following sources does one consider
more reliable.
Reliable for what?
Sahih Muslim and Sahih Bukhari vs. wikipedia and Internet blogs.
For hadith, Muslim and Bukhari. For general information on Islam,
hands down, Wikipedia. Muslim and Bukhari are not manuals of Islam.
They are collections of stories, which require interpretation. They
are, in Wikipedia terms, primary sources. Use with care.
One of us cited Sahih Muslim and Sahih Bukhari indicating a
testimony from A'isha herself that intercourse occured when she was
9 or thereabouts.
No. Sahih Muslim has an account attributed to Ayesha that she was
taken to the Prophet's house when she was nine. Not that they had
intercourse. However, that can reasonably be inferred.
Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3311:
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle
(may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old,
and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her
dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was
eighteen years old.
There is no isnad (which is typical for my edition of Sahih Muslim).
Muslim narrates a series of traditions on Ayesha, which are
unattributed. He did not hear this from Ayesha!
Lomax cited Internet Blogs to say that A'isha was a different age.
I didn't say she was a different age. One page gave arguments she
was. I was citing this to show the range of opinion among Muslims. It
wasn't a blog.
Which of us is more credible with better evidence? Lomax seems
to think that his evidence is stronger because he writes lengthy
tiresome essays to confuse the issue. If you are buying it, you
have the right to be stupid enough to be deceive by lies.
What Jojo is effectively lying about would be that I claimed Ayesha
was *not* nine. I pointed to evidence that she was, and evidence that
she wasn't. I wrote that I don't know how old she was, but that she
was "sexually mature," regardless. Jojo wants to quibble on that, but
a sexually mature woman is not "barely out of diapers," which he's
said over and over, unless there is some problem!
I write lengthy essays because I actually do research and report it,
and I discuss the issues. Jojo hates that. He just wants to toss his
mud and be done with it. Someone who actually checks his claims? Horrors!
OK, show of hands, which of us would follow our neighbors to commit
an abhorrent act.
*What abhorrent act?* Jojo has never been specific. And nobody here
is proposing that girls be married at nine. What I've been saying,
though, is that this *was not an abhorrent act* in the culture, the
time and place where it occurred. Nobody cared about her age, they
care about her *maturity*. And Islamic law, in some places, is still
the same. Maturity, by the way, one of the sources I cited noted,
includes her reasoning and sound judgment. But that's dicta, in a
way, because only one aspect of marriageability is being considered here.
Heck, if all our neighbors practiced beastiality, does that make our
practice of it OK?
Straw man argument. And nobody has claimed that a practice is "OK".
Rather, if a practice is universally accepted in a time, we cannot
condemn those who practiced it, it was their culture. The practice
itself could be awful, but obviously was not from theirs. If we are
going to judge individuals for doing what was common, we might become
interested in *how* they did that common practice. Were they abusive?
Ayesha shows *no sign of being an abused girl* She lived to be ninety
years old, she was very vocal, we have a lot of material from her.
None of it resembles what women abused as children are like. And I've
known many such women.
What Jojo has just done is to equate a sexual relationship between a
man and a woman, consensual, open, respected by the entire society,
considered unremarkable in the culture, and not even considered a
problem by his *enemies*, later, until very modern times, with bestiality.
Lomax and a few others seems to think that because all the tribes
surrounding muhammed practice child molestation of 9 year old little
girls, that muhammed's practice of it was OK.
Of course molestation is not okay. Neither is genital mutilation. Nor
bestiality, but if Jojo really wants to fantasize about bestiality,
well, it's a free country. Just don't do it, Jojo, it's generally illegal.
If you are buying it, you have the right to be stupid enough to be
deceive by lies.
'Nuff said. I can never convince a retrograde moon god worshipper
about his abhorrent acts.
Jojo doesn't seem to realize that he would never convince *anyone*
about *anything* the way that he "evangelizes." It flat doesn't work.
That's what's is so funny about that Moon God cartoon. It's an
amazing fantasy. The Christian is somehow visiting a mosque with his
daughter, and says to her that the people praying are praying to
their Moon God.
Poor girl, father like that. Now *there* is child abuse!
A man praying overhears him and pretty much threatens to kill him.
But he patienty explains that he's been decieved. The Allah that he
thougth was the Creator of the Heavens and the Earth and all between,
the Merciful, the Eternal Truth, is *actually* a Moon God.
The fantasty here is that this angry Muslim didn't just kill him!
People who start out like that man in the mosque aren't thoughtful.
They won't listen to knowledgeable Muslims. I've stood up to these
people, and it was touch and go! This is what is really funny: the
man turns into a determined martyr, he'll go and tell his people the
"truth" about the Moon God. If his people are like he was, they would
indeed kill him, and the father knows that. He thinks it's a good
thing. The guy will become a martyr.
For a Moon God myth. Made up. I don't care if the Moon God *were*
called Allah, God, Supreme Being, whatever, I don't worship a Moon
God, and neither does any Muslim.
The message? Well, the guy is out to sell comic books. The probable
message is "We are better than them. They are stupid, ignorant, and violent."
But there is another message: All you have to do to carry the Gospel
to Muslims is tell them that they are worshipping a Moon God. They
will fall over and become lambs. Surely they are eager for thie
Valuable Information.
Looks like Jojo is trying that one here. Hey, Jojo, has this *ever*
worked? The Moon God trope is pretty new. I've seen the Pedophile
Prophet one for years. Never saw it work. The only thing that I've
seen drive Muslims away from Islam has been other Muslims. Some can
be really, really awful.
But it doesn't work to attack Muslims, even bad ones. What might work
is to *actually behave like a Christian.* Be friendly, supportive,
kind. Help people. Take some advice from the Bible, have a soft voice
and loud ears.
It might take some practice.
