As a matter of fact my friend, the practice of Abraham, Jacob, David,
Solomon and other old testament Jews are in fact Abhorrent and retrograde.
And you will never hear a Christian justifying these acts. Jesus corrected
these retrograde acts. In the New Testament, you will never hear of a
Christian having multiple wives ever again. That is the act of a real God
and teacher. He corrects and ends retrograde practices.
Now, what did muhammed do? Instead of ending it, he embraced it and
justified it. His propaganda book the koran, teaches that a man must only
have 4 wives. He had 12 according to Lomax. History tells us that he had
dozens of wives and concubines and sex toys. But instead of condemning this
erroneous act of his HOLEY prophet, he justifies it and try to spin it away.
How enlightened and progressive of you Lomax. This is the corruption of
islam for all to see.
Once again, Just because it was done by all peoples, does not mean it is
right. God's intention has always been 1 man to 1 wife. It's as simple as
that. I promise you, you will never find me justifying the actions of David
by saying that it is OK, because that was the culture at that time. Both
David and Solomon are some of the most admired teachers of Christians. But
we do not justify their wrong actions. We do not justify their sins. We
tell it as it is. That my friends, is the action of honest men.
Contrast that to the acts of Lomax. He comes up with various spins,
irrelenvancies and lies, to confuse the issue. He then justifies the
retrograde acts by claiming that that is the normal cultural thing that
people do. I'm not surprised. Lomax feels he is justified in doing this
because what he is doing is for the good of islam and muhammed.
One prominent Christian once said: (and I quote to the best of my
recollection.) "A muslim will lie if he feels his lie will serve islam.
Remember this fact when you are debating with a muslim." And now, the truth
of this statement is evident for all to see.
Jojo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Abd ul-Rahman Lomax" <a...@lomaxdesign.com>
To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>; <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Friday, December 28, 2012 11:23 PM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT] Moon God, Dozens of wives, and marriageable age
At 02:43 AM 12/28/2012, Jojo Jaro wrote:
OK Lomax, let's agree to disagree.
No, because Jojo lies about what we supposedly disagree about. In this
"agree to disagree post," he again lies, after having been corrected many
times, about what I "say." I haven't said what he opposes to his positino.
In one case, in this series, he says for himself, what he has not
prevously said. He says that polygamy is "abhorrent and retrograde."
Retrograde it might be, that's arguable, but "abhorrent," not. Here is a
Christian effectively claiming that what Abraham did, with the support of
his first wife, Sarah, is "abhorrent." Yet it was within the customs of
the time. Nobody telling the story, which is how we know it, thought it
was abhorrent. The analogy with what Muhammad did and Jojo's claims about
it is clear.
In another thread, Re: [Vo]:[OT]Birther Myth? or Lomax lies , Jojo lies
about what he, himself, quoted, included in the mail, the Executive Order
from President Obama, and continues to lie about it. This is perfect,
because he lies about what is in his own mail. When he lies about "the
truth," and doesn't provide sources -- the norm for him -- it's possible
to imagine he is merely mistaken, or, for some, that he's telling the
truth, *unless one investigates.* But where the subject he's lying about
is right in front of us, that's no longer possible -- unless, of course,
what he's claimng is there is actually there.
There are only a few possibilities remaining here.
1. Jojo is high-functioning, in certain ways, but insane. Hallucinating.
2. Jojo is a troll, and lies because it continues the trolling.
I had an excuse for responding to some of his posts. Most of what he's
written consists of things that are believed by a substantial number of
people, or at least many think that what he's saying is possible. He's
asserting common ignorant tropes. So responding to them places information
about these subjects in a public record, apposite to the claims.
It's been suggested by someone I respect that the job is done. Jojo has
revealed his complete insanity, and that takes us to a possible
understanding of the second possibility above. Jojo's mission has been to
discredit all the positions he takes. It's called a "straw puppet," a
combination of straw man and sock puppet. It's rare, but I've seen it.
In the thread on "FGM," I came upon and acknoweldged a tragedy, that
Muslim scholars had inadequately educated the Muslim public about the true
meaning of female circumcision as found in the classical sources for
Islam, but have allowed ignorance and fundamentalist populism to hold
sway. There is a parallel tragedy here, that sane Christian evangelists (I
do not think that an oxymoron) have not spoken up to distance their faith
from people like Jojo. The result is a discredit to the religion, as a
social phenomenon. Islam has suffered from the same, to a degree, but
that's ending. Scholars *are* speaking up against the often violent and
brutal -- and ignorant -- fundamentalists.
End of topic.
Jojo has claimed that he'll "let [me] have the last word on this topic."
He has said the like of that before and was lying -- or if he wasn't
lying, he did not honor his word. Let's see what he does this time. He can
keep his word or not, I'm done here.
I say intercourse between a 50 year old man and a 9 year old little girl
is abhorrent and retrograde. You say it is justified because people
around him were not offended. Let's allow the readers to decide if this
is abhorrent.
I say marrying multiple wives is abhorrent and retrograde, you say it is
OK because other tribes do it. Let's allow the reader to decide if this
is abhorrent.
I say worshipping a 2nd rate moon god of muhammed's tribe is retarded, you
say it is not, Let's allow the readers to decide if the mood god is their
cup of tea over a the Universal God of Judaism and Christianity.
I say a 9 year old little girl is not sexually mature to be a mother, you
say she is because she has had her first menstrual cycle. Let's allow the
readers to decide if this is abhorrent.
I say the practice of FGM is abhorrent, since it does not have any
redeeming or medical value, you say it is OK. Let's allow the readers to
decide if this is abhorrent.
I say the truth and cite quality evidence, you tell lies and cite
wikipedia and Internet blogs as your evidence. Let's allow the readers to
decide if this is abhorrent.
I tell the truth about islam and highlight the corruption of a retrograde
and violent religion, you lie and lie for the good of muhammed and islam.
Let's allow the readers to decide.
Frankly, I grow tired of reading you boring lengthy tiresome lies of an
essay. I guess you've found a way to shut me up. Just bore me with
tiresome spin and lies. So, I bow out and let you have the last word on
this topic.
Jojo
----- Original Message ----- From: "Abd ul-Rahman Lomax"
<a...@lomaxdesign.com>
To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>; <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Friday, December 28, 2012 1:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT] Moon God, Dozens of wives, and marriageable age
At 10:01 PM 12/27/2012, Jojo Jaro wrote:
What are you suggesting lomax? That age is uncertain whether she was 9
or 10. Either way, what muhammed practiced was abhorrent and
retrograde.
No, *Jojo* is abhorrent and retrograde. That's because he's now. What
Muhammad did wasn't abhorrent, because nobody hated it. Then. It wasn't
retrograde, either, it was not odd or strange or unusual.
If A'isha has had her first menstrual cycle, does that mean she is a
sexually mature woman.
Yes. That's what the word means. It does not mean that no further
maturation can occur. It means that she is capable of becoming a mother.
Lomax seems to believe this and asking vorticians to swallow this.
No, I don't care what Vorticians think, but I'm not seeing any support,
here, for Jojo's viciousness.
OK, show of hands, which of us with daughters 9 or 10 years old, that
have had their first mentrual cycle that we would consider to be
sexually mature.
Hand up. That is, if I knew that my daugher had her first period, I'd
know that she was sexually mature. That has consequences.
For pete's sake. These little girls do not have fully developed mammary
glands yet, and Lomax thinks they are sexually mature. This is the
corruption of islam for all to see.
The glands will work if she gets pregnant. Jojo is making silly
arguments. The issue is not today's girls, and the conditions girls face
today. The issue is Jojo's claim that was was done *then* was "abhorrent
and retrograde" *then*.
And we don't now the age. Some sources conclude that Ayesha was much
older.
OK, show of hands, which of the following sources does one consider more
reliable.
Reliable for what?
Sahih Muslim and Sahih Bukhari vs. wikipedia and Internet blogs.
For hadith, Muslim and Bukhari. For general information on Islam, hands
down, Wikipedia. Muslim and Bukhari are not manuals of Islam. They are
collections of stories, which require interpretation. They are, in
Wikipedia terms, primary sources. Use with care.
One of us cited Sahih Muslim and Sahih Bukhari indicating a testimony
from A'isha herself that intercourse occured when she was 9 or
thereabouts.
No. Sahih Muslim has an account attributed to Ayesha that she was taken
to the Prophet's house when she was nine. Not that they had intercourse.
However, that can reasonably be inferred.
Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3311:
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may
peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was
taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with
her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old.
There is no isnad (which is typical for my edition of Sahih Muslim).
Muslim narrates a series of traditions on Ayesha, which are unattributed.
He did not hear this from Ayesha!
Lomax cited Internet Blogs to say that A'isha was a different age.
I didn't say she was a different age. One page gave arguments she was. I
was citing this to show the range of opinion among Muslims. It wasn't a
blog.
Which of us is more credible with better evidence? Lomax seems to
think that his evidence is stronger because he writes lengthy tiresome
essays to confuse the issue. If you are buying it, you have the right
to be stupid enough to be deceive by lies.
What Jojo is effectively lying about would be that I claimed Ayesha was
*not* nine. I pointed to evidence that she was, and evidence that she
wasn't. I wrote that I don't know how old she was, but that she was
"sexually mature," regardless. Jojo wants to quibble on that, but a
sexually mature woman is not "barely out of diapers," which he's said
over and over, unless there is some problem!
I write lengthy essays because I actually do research and report it, and
I discuss the issues. Jojo hates that. He just wants to toss his mud and
be done with it. Someone who actually checks his claims? Horrors!
OK, show of hands, which of us would follow our neighbors to commit an
abhorrent act.
*What abhorrent act?* Jojo has never been specific. And nobody here is
proposing that girls be married at nine. What I've been saying, though,
is that this *was not an abhorrent act* in the culture, the time and
place where it occurred. Nobody cared about her age, they care about her
*maturity*. And Islamic law, in some places, is still the same. Maturity,
by the way, one of the sources I cited noted, includes her reasoning and
sound judgment. But that's dicta, in a way, because only one aspect of
marriageability is being considered here.
Heck, if all our neighbors practiced beastiality, does that make our
practice of it OK?
Straw man argument. And nobody has claimed that a practice is "OK".
Rather, if a practice is universally accepted in a time, we cannot
condemn those who practiced it, it was their culture. The practice itself
could be awful, but obviously was not from theirs. If we are going to
judge individuals for doing what was common, we might become interested
in *how* they did that common practice. Were they abusive? Ayesha shows
*no sign of being an abused girl* She lived to be ninety years old, she
was very vocal, we have a lot of material from her. None of it resembles
what women abused as children are like. And I've known many such women.
What Jojo has just done is to equate a sexual relationship between a man
and a woman, consensual, open, respected by the entire society,
considered unremarkable in the culture, and not even considered a problem
by his *enemies*, later, until very modern times, with bestiality.
Lomax and a few others seems to think that because all the tribes
surrounding muhammed practice child molestation of 9 year old little
girls, that muhammed's practice of it was OK.
Of course molestation is not okay. Neither is genital mutilation. Nor
bestiality, but if Jojo really wants to fantasize about bestiality, well,
it's a free country. Just don't do it, Jojo, it's generally illegal.
If you are buying it, you have the right to be stupid enough to be
deceive by lies.
'Nuff said. I can never convince a retrograde moon god worshipper about
his abhorrent acts.
Jojo doesn't seem to realize that he would never convince *anyone* about
*anything* the way that he "evangelizes." It flat doesn't work. That's
what's is so funny about that Moon God cartoon. It's an amazing fantasy.
The Christian is somehow visiting a mosque with his daughter, and says to
her that the people praying are praying to their Moon God.
Poor girl, father like that. Now *there* is child abuse!
A man praying overhears him and pretty much threatens to kill him. But he
patienty explains that he's been decieved. The Allah that he thougth was
the Creator of the Heavens and the Earth and all between, the Merciful,
the Eternal Truth, is *actually* a Moon God.
The fantasty here is that this angry Muslim didn't just kill him! People
who start out like that man in the mosque aren't thoughtful. They won't
listen to knowledgeable Muslims. I've stood up to these people, and it
was touch and go! This is what is really funny: the man turns into a
determined martyr, he'll go and tell his people the "truth" about the
Moon God. If his people are like he was, they would indeed kill him, and
the father knows that. He thinks it's a good thing. The guy will become a
martyr.
For a Moon God myth. Made up. I don't care if the Moon God *were* called
Allah, God, Supreme Being, whatever, I don't worship a Moon God, and
neither does any Muslim.
The message? Well, the guy is out to sell comic books. The probable
message is "We are better than them. They are stupid, ignorant, and
violent."
But there is another message: All you have to do to carry the Gospel to
Muslims is tell them that they are worshipping a Moon God. They will fall
over and become lambs. Surely they are eager for thie Valuable
Information.
Looks like Jojo is trying that one here. Hey, Jojo, has this *ever*
worked? The Moon God trope is pretty new. I've seen the Pedophile Prophet
one for years. Never saw it work. The only thing that I've seen drive
Muslims away from Islam has been other Muslims. Some can be really,
really awful.
But it doesn't work to attack Muslims, even bad ones. What might work is
to *actually behave like a Christian.* Be friendly, supportive, kind.
Help people. Take some advice from the Bible, have a soft voice and loud
ears.
It might take some practice.
