Below, Jojo promised to allow me "the last word." This is it. It
really doesn't matter, though, because I'm done. anyway I already
shut down response in other threads. There are issues raised in these
exchanges that can be of value, but they are also basically off-topic.
The relevance I could assert is that they reveal a certain type of
thinking that is not all that uncommon, it is merely extremely
visible with Jojo. Jojo is demonstrating a hazard that we are all
subject to. To avoid it requires care and a willingness to self-examine.
At 03:46 AM 12/31/2012, Jojo Jaro wrote:
OK , Lomax, you are an expert in deception and twist and spin. I
bow to your skill and go away.
All Jojo would have to do is acknowledge errors or misinterpretations
on his part. My "skill" is only hard work. It takes time to research
the issues raised. It takes time to write something coherent.
And, yes, it takes time, though much less time, to read what's found.
What trolls do, mostly, is waste time. Is Jojo a troll?
A troll is someone who has, as a motive, insulting or enraging
others. Motive can be difficult to discern, but, observing Jojo since
his participation in Vortex started to go south, yes, Jojo intends to
outrage. This is connected, for him, with "responding to insults,"
i.e., to a belief that one must respond "in kind" to insults, and it
is also connected to "correcting propaganda," except that Jojo has,
many times, *introduced* highly controversial topics, connected with
politics and religion, when he either thought he was being insulted,
or he saw his *beliefs* as being insulted. He introduces them,
obviously, because he wants to "insult back" someone, so he picks a
topic that he thinks will outrage them. And he's not precise, the
topic is a shotgun blast, with massive collateral damage. That the
damage *usually* does not appear is only because the readership of
Vortex is relatively small, and most people just shrug stuff off.
He knew and expected that his use of Vortex to promote his beliefs
(or "correct the beliefs of others") would be disruptive. He referred
to it many times. But he took nearly every excuse to do it.
I documented how this behavior first showed, previously,
http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg74768.html
The entire list can document this time that I am letting Lomax have
the last word. I will no longer post unless asked a specific
question or insulted whether directly or in reference.
Please let this escalating round of insults end. I'm tired.
The exchange will end as he says, if he keeps his word. It's not
merely a "round of insults." That's what *Jojo* does.
Above, I describe what a troll is, and I provide some level of
argument that could lead to a conclusion of trolling *in effect*. Is
that an insult? Jojo has consistently claimed that his comments about
Obama and supporters, about Muhammad and his wife Ayesha, about what
a billion people worship as God, calling Allah a "Moon god," about
people who are concerned about global warming, about Christians other
than a narrow group, about people who accept the evolution of
species, and about many participants on this list, are "just the
truth," and therefore not insults.
I research topics that come up, and report the results. I don't
research irrelevant topics and then dump the results here. On
list-irrelevant topics, I don't start discussions here as new
threads, other than in error or to pull an irrelevant topic out of a
thread where it's disruptive. I have, many times, asked for errors to
be corrected. In the absence of that correction, and where what I've
said isn't obviously mere opinion, where it was based on cited
evidence, I must assume that what I've written is either true or at
least reasonable.
Yet Jojo has, many times, called it "lies." It's fairly clear that
his reading comprehension is poor, he doesn't understand what sources
mean. He's mistaken comment that is not about him at all, as being
about him, a clear example came up yesterday with Axil. He calls my
posts "lies" because he does not like what conclusions may be drawn
from them, and he assumes conclusions and states them as if they are
what I've said. Frequently.
But my posts are just a collection of facts and thought. Facts are
not lies, they are just what's so. If a source conveys an untruth,
and the source is cited as saying what is untrue, it is not a lie to
state what is in the source, if it's attributed, because *it's in the source.*
Science begins with this kind of detachment from opinion and
judgment. I do not always distinguish my "thoughts" as such; but my
thoughts are only my reactions. If reported as my reactions, they
are, again, not lies. They are just my reactions, and, again, that's
just what's so. My reactions and thoughts are not "truth," nor are
they "lies." They are just reactions.
This is so for everyone who is not God.
It's easy for anyone with the training to recognize the difference
between fact and opinion. It's so easy that I don't always formally
distingish opinion, nor does anyone in casual writing. (In scientific
writing, the distinction is crucial, and should be, for the best
writing, formal and very careful.)
Often what Jojo has done here, however, is to read or skim over the
results of research, that, if he checked, could contradict Jojo's
*belief*, and to avoid checking it and to avoid considering it, and
he rejects it immediately as "lies," but that is really showing us,
if he's sincere, only his own emotional reaction. It's raw denial.
Allowing reactions like this to run us is what allows us to remain
ignorant and blind. When we are caught in this denial, we understand
very, very little. If we are *attached* to our own religion (i.e.,
it's *right* and everyone else is *wrong*), we don't understand *our
own religion,* much less that of others, yet we can be very quick to
judge others.
And that same kind of thinking is common on alternative energy
topics, we see it frequently. It is merely blatant with Jojo,
uncovered and unmasked.
Is this an insult? Or is it an observation about the human condition?
I'm finishing up my consideration of Jojo's participation here. I
must stop, myself, because I noticed something. Yesterday, I started
to actually get angry. Once I was angry, I started to plot how to
harass and humiliate Jojo, real world. It easily could become
obsessive. And that, by islam, as I learned it, indicates I *must*
drop this, unless some critical interest appears, and I'll need to be
very careful about such a judgment
One of my new year's resolution is not to engage with Lomax
anymore. Can't win with liars? (I know I know, but you may insult
me back one more time and I will not respond. But I will respond to
further insults beyond one.)
I've not insulted Jojo, generally. I could be called "arrogant,"
that's easy. In these threads, I've replied with carefully
distinguished fact, often, and Jojo has responded to it as insult and
lie. I'm going to list a few facts here, a little opinion, and leave
it at that.
Jojo is accessing the internet through 112.206.36.18, from an ISP in
the Philippines. He posts from the appropriate time zone for the
Philippines. He's acknowleged living outside the U.S. He claims to
have shared the Hotmail account jth...@hotmail.com with Joseph Hao,
who claimed at one time, many years ago, to be living in the U.S.,
but who also has shown a physical address in the Philippines. There
was one post to this list explicitly from Joseph Hao, using the
Hotmail account, 3 Mar 2012 00:21:42 +0800. The style seemed to me
distinctly different, and that style appears in some other jthao1
posts. However the timestamps indicated a Phillipine computer location.
Jojo did say something about Joseph Hao that was implausible,
claiming that Hao was living in the Atlanta area, studying for a
certain certification, which was what Hao had said -- what, eight
years ago? Jojo reported having "left the country," i.e., the U.S.
Joseph Hao sightings:
http://www.groupstudy.com/archives/ccielab/200207/msg00296.html (2002
Knoxville, TN)
http://www.voiceie.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=000124
(2004, mentions CCIE Voice Lab Atlanta, but does not state Atlanta loc.)
http://www.securityie.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile;u=00003289
(2002 Knoxville, TN)
http://www.groupstudy.com/archives/ccielab/200805/msg00072.html
(2008, Hao is Chinese, no surprise)
http://cantonfair108.007eye.com/inquiry_1/Agricultural,_Animal_%2526_Aquatic_15.html
(Fair October, 2010. Philippine location)
Jojo Jaro sightings:
http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/feeder/725753-hermetia-illucens-worms-reptiles.html
(July 2011, Philippines)
I present this information simply because I collected it. From it, I
see reason to *suspect* that Joseph Hao is Jojo Jaro, and thus that
Jojo has lied about Hao. However, this is not proof. The evidence
against it, however, is *only* the difference of style, I mentioned,
and Jojo's statement. There is another implausibility here. Joseph
Hao used the Hotmail account for years for his CCIE studies. Why
would he abandon it? I can imagine a reason, but ... it's simpler
that Jojo wanted to post somewhere else or write someone else as
Joseph Hao, and changed the name, and simply forgot, once, to change
it back. The difference of style could be an illusion, representing
only a relatively calm Jojo vs one who is afflicted.
There is an irony here. Jojo has claimed, again and again, that Obama
could resolve the birth question by requesting the release of his
"vault birth certificate." He actually did so in 2011, but birthers
have not given up. Regardless, here, if it concerns Jojo that some of
us might suspect him to be Joseph Hao, his friend, the matter could
easily be resolved if we have a confirmed contact from Joseph Hao,
who could, at the same time, either dissociate himself from the Jojo
postings here, or acknowledge and approve of them, even if he didn't make them.
That's just what is so. There is no demand here. What Jojo has done
is not illegal in the United States, so far, but it might be illegal
in the Philippines. Some nations take a very dim view of stirring up
inter-religious enmity. Christian nations, by the way.
On the "Moon god" trope and claims about Allah and Muslims, looking
for how it started, I found this:
http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg68757.html from
Daniel Rocha, which shows a sequence, based on my message of
http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg68715.html
In that post, I called Jojo *to his religion*, I did not insult his
religion in the least. What I did, however, was to raise a doubt:
I'm starting to doubt that Jojo is serious. This could merely be trolling.
The cause of that idea was that Jojo did not engage with evidence,
but continued to make preposterous assertions about Obama, ignoring
evidence presented. Others came up with a similar conclusion about
Jojo's participation, which was behind of a grossly uncivil comment
to Jojo from another Vortician.
As can be seen in the Daniel Rocha response, Jojo went on the attack,
directly insulting *all Muslims,* not just me. He responded to
"insult," and he responded with everything he can grab and throw.
Weapons-grade Balonium....
Everyone with half a brain cell knows that what he released was
faked. But I guess I can forgive you because you don't have half a brain cell.
PS. I know for a fact that Jesus Christ does not like lying so I am
not lying. What I do know is that allah (aka Satan) is a liar and
the father of lies. That is why, you as an allah slave have no
compunction at all about your blatant lies. That is why Bin Laden
has no compunction in lying to kill people.
(Remember, you started this religious attack. This is your third
post with religious attacks. I never initiate a personal attack but
I will give as good as I take.)
The Moon God trope was introduced specifically by Jojo with
http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg72737.html
In a post which raised the spectre of gay marriage, and referred to
the "criminal-in-thief," Jojo had continued:
The re-election of a criminal is part of God's judgement on America as this
criminal continues to ravage this nation until we are all slaves to
commies and
godless moon god worshippers.
Daniel Rocha picked up on this and objected:
http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg72738.html
Seriuosly, I'd really appreciate if you were banned. It's well known that
'godless moon worshippers' is an anti islamic attack.
And indeed it was. Jojo responded with
http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg72742.html
He had not yet actually called "Allah" a "Moon god," explicitly, but
proceeded to.
Seriously also, I would appreciate it also if I were banned. That
will only go
to show the mob rule that occurs in this forum.
My friend, I did not say "godless moon worshippers"; that would be false.
I said "godless moon god worshippers"; which is the truth. And how can truth
be considered "hatred"? Are you denying the truth of what I just
said, or do
you simply not like what I said?. Aren't they "godless"; and aren't
they "moon
god worshippers?" So calling allah a moon god will get one banned
but calling
Jesus Christ a fairly tale is acceptable and even
celebrated? Which statement
is true?
To answer Jojo's questions,
1. If the truth is expressed with hatred, it is an expression of hatred.
2. Daniel Rocha was pointing to common hate speech, which is
generally prohibited on Vortex. Truth is not the issue.
3. No, Muslims are not "godless." Muslims worship the God of the
Heavens and the Earth, the Creator. Disagreements exist over
theology, but God is God. There is only One. "God" means "Reality."
People differ on what Reality is.
4. Jojo was not banned, not yet. However, later he repeated and
intensified and elaborated on the "Islam is a false religion/Moon
God" theme, but nobody regularly repeated the fairy tale story.
5. "Neither." These are not facts, they are intrepretations. It's
possible to state facts but those statements aren't fact, either one
of them. They are opinion and conclusion, and, as such, are human
artifact, and in Jojo's case, there was intention to insult (because,
he believes, he's been insulted). Without finding the original "fairy
tale" comment, I can have no opinion about what it actually meant.
Jojo has continued to claim as "truth" many opinions that are only
that, opinions, and he has made factual claims that don't match the
evidence, and sometimes, the evidence is in his very post, in one
case quoted by him in its entirety, the Obama Executive Order that
birthers claim was how Obama "forced" everyone with access to his
personal documents to keep them secret. I'll just cite his post, not
all the follow-up.
http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg74530.html
The Executive Order defines terms, and anyone who thinks that this
applies to birth certificates has not read or does not understand the
Order. This whole affair demonstrates how the birther phenomenon
arose and was maintained, and many other examples have been found.
Someone read the Order, misunderstood it, and then stated in public
form that it was prohibiting access to his birth certificate. And
others repeated it, and did not check it, and when someone tried to
point out the truth about the Order, they were called liars. O-bots.
Brainwashed.
Many here have opined that Jojo is insane. Yes, he is, but his
insanity is not as uncommon as we might like to think. The way out of
insanity is not to deny it, it is to accept it, and seek clarity,
truth, and, yes, peace. Jojo has continually had an opportunity to do
that in these discussions, but something is stopping him. All he has
to do is stop and look at what is in front of him. It's that simple.
Some matters came up in these "off-topic" discussions that might be
useful elsewhere. I'd never examined the details of the Birther myth.
It's fascinating.
I'd researched what is polemically called Female Genital Mutilation,
years ago, but this was before Al-Azhar, the ancient Muslim
university, had issued a statement on female circumcision, clarifying
the issue, and as a result of my research on the issue here,
stimulated by Jojo's claims, I found something I had not seen before,
and, as a result, I now have a much clearer understanding of the
issue -- and, as well, what to do about it. That could save a lot of
pain for people, and even lives.
I have a translation of a 14th century manual of Islamic practice,
and it describes circumcision as "waajib," which means, roughly,
strongly recommended. (It's not a "central obligation of Islam"
according to al-Azhar.) This is a description of both male and female
circumcision, and it describes what is to be done. The male part is
not controversial: it involves cutting the foreskin. The description
for females is the cutting of the "baZr." If you look in modern
Arabic dictionaries, you will find that "baZr" means clitoris, and,
indeed, some seem to think that, most especially critics of Islam,
probably Evangelist Christian Arabs. What the scholar-translator of
the manual wrote was that it means the prepuce, the hood of the
clitoris. I.e., male and female circumcisions are precisely
analogous, affecting what is quite similar anatomically.
But does the word actually mean that? This kind of question requires
scholarship, it would require a study of classical sources, one
cannot depend on modern meanings. As it happens, I have Lane's
Lexicon, so I looked it up. Lane discusses the meaning, notes the
*common error* of translating baZr as clitoris, and asserts, from
etymology and apparently from ancient source usage, that it means
"prepuce of the clitoris." Lane was a non-Muslim scholar who devoted
the bulk of his life to compiling his Lexicon. This was before there
was any flap over "FGM."
I reported the research. Jojo learned nothing.
He could turn that around in a flash.
Jojo's full original response, including quotation of prior interchange:
http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg74831.html
