Re Eric's question, what species. The species I had in mind (armchair style) specifically are chimps, bonobos and elephants. I remember odd bits of information (yes, several on TV, in fact) relating how strange elephants, for example, act at times when a herd member dies, even a long time later. I recall seeing pictures of chimps, all alone, doing slow, dreamy dances, pointing to the sky, or tracing their fingers 'thoughtfully' along a rock wall. Just about everyone who has seen examples of animals doing disturbing things like this, get the eerie feeling, that "these guys are thinking pretty deep stuff". For any biologist, it is no stretch, knowing the deepest biological similarities, (i.e. 98% DNA homology with the great apes) to imagine what a thin line there is. It shouldn't be construed that, notwithstanding that I am a (old) physiologist, that I have any especial expertise in ethology, ecology, neurobiology or similar animal psychology disciplines upon which to base my speculations on the mental development of species, nor have I read any substantial amount of this literature. It will be one of Man's most fascinating adventures, however, to see the biological (physical) bases of human and animal intelligence explicated by neurobiological measurements in the not far off future. One paper I did run into the other day that jibes with other, similar literature I encountered over the decades, may interest some is : Lynn, Franks, and Savage-Rumbaugh, 2008. Precursors of morality in the use of the symbols "good" and "bad" in two bonobos and a chimpanzee....Language & Communication 28:213-224. best regards, ken
On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 1:29 AM, Alain Sepeda <alain.sep...@gmail.com>wrote: > It remind me the doctor who wahs taking care of Kim Jung Hill (or > another...who died recently...). > He said that that man was normal. > > It is a place where prisoners in reeducation camp are executed by bath in > melted metal (heard in a TV document talking of Mengele replicators from > WW2 to now). > they execute people that have tried to escape and that Chinese police > bring back to death (when local mafia do not enslave them). > > This man was normal, sensible to cinema... he live in a system of deep > terror were not being monstrous mean you will be monstrously treated. You > cannot judge why people may collaborate with horror, if you ignore the fear. > > Science, with less physical violence, is a similar network of communities. > You are not bathed in melted steel, but covered with horse manure, and > executed by public panel and scientific press. > > I'm a corp executive, and I know professionally, like many economists know > for countries, that the problem is not the individuals (who have > intelligence, risk analysis capacities, good will, empathy) but the > organization, with intelligent individual who adapt to the psychiatric > hospital they live in. > > What thomas Kuhn explain is that it is required for the "normal science" > to explore the known land ... Without the blinders, scientist would lose > much time in questioning all. > You need scientific terrorists to explore beyond the frontier. > Taleb says that it is the job of entrepreneur, garage inventors, > practitioners, lab or field engineers, and other lower species that really > do the job. > > the crisis today is not because of bad normal science, but because on a > huge monolithic, rationalized, big science . we need small island of > science, independent funding criteria, various independent journals with > independent policies... > not a cartel of opinion leaders, some planet-wide comon criteria to judge > what is good or bad... > > globally taleb says that big animal, like western science, are fragile. > > LENR may put it at risk, like AGW... people will lose confidence in that > big monopoly of truth. > Big science think it is too big to fail, but I'm afraid it is too big to > save. > Science culture, like banks, or nuclear plant, tankers, have to be small > so a catastrophe have a minor impact. There will always hapen catastrophe, > good or bad, just have not to break the system. > > > > 2013/6/21 James Bowery <jabow...@gmail.com> > >> When normal is insane, what does "extremism" mean? >> >> >> On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 12:49 AM, Peter Gluck <peter.gl...@gmail.com>wrote: >> >>> Dear Ken, >>> >>> special thanks for your nice answer. It is my duty to >>> write an editorial regarding the feedback of my Scientism >>> paper. >>> Peter >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 8:31 AM, Eric Walker <eric.wal...@gmail.com>wrote: >>> >>>> On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 3:27 PM, ken deboer <barlaz...@gmail.com>wrote: >>>> >>>> our near relatives ... clearly possess ... manifestations of high >>>>> mental activity, ... even a primitive and undeveloped sense of mysticism >>>>> or >>>>> protoreligion. >>>>> >>>> >>>> I'm curious in what species this has been discovered. >>>> >>>> Eric >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Dr. Peter Gluck >>> Cluj, Romania >>> http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com >>> >> >> >
