That is clearer. The thought experiment designed to test GR looks like solid paradox to me. So does the thought experiment designed to test SR. You should illustrate that as well. harry
On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 10:20 PM, John Berry <berry.joh...@gmail.com> wrote: > Here you go: http://imageshack.com/a/img198/4812/j2s2.png > > BTW if acceleration doesn't cause time dilation, even though it is a claim > of General Relativity that acceleration does this. > Then the the second clock would not be time dilated by that means. > > But the argument would still stand since the path light takes would seem > longer. > The effect would be diminished. > > The effects of mutual time dilation SR style between the opposite sides of > the rotating frame and all parts of the rotating frame with the lab frame > make me choose to ignore that component for now, but any attempt to > reconcile this experiment with SR time dilation will be a mess and utterly > contradictory as everything should be effected equally and yet > paradoxically. > > If that does not help, then the linear example is: > Put sensors on opposite train windows, one clock in the train frame, one > on the ground frame. > Use an optical or brush contact method to send signals to the ground frame > clock. > Optionally add a set of earth frame sensors as close to the others making > sure they both see the same light at the same time. > Light is sent from the earth frame directly across taking the shortest > route, but it looks indirect to the train. > > How can both measure C for the light? > Or what if you replace it with an electron at near .999 C, what would be > expected? > > Obviously assume a vacuum is present. > > Thanks for taking a look, > John > > > On Thu, Feb 27, 2014 at 3:37 PM, H Veeder <hveeder...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> The spatial relationships between the discs and clocks is not clear. >> Can you draw a diagram of the experiment? >> >> harry >> >> >> On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 10:34 PM, John Berry <berry.joh...@gmail.com>wrote: >> >>> For brevity, I will explain it in sentence. and the possible results in >>> a few more, But the longer form solves questions and objections: >>> >>> Take 2 light sensors separated at an appropriate distance, the censors >>> are shaped like CD and are transparent, designated A and B, rotate them at >>> high enough velocity so that the time dilation associated with General >>> Relativity (GR) applying (gravitational equivalence time dilation) can be >>> measured, and let sensor A send a signal to both clocks, and sensor B also >>> sends a signal to both clocks. >>> If we expect light to be seen as C (assuming a vacuum) by both clocks we >>> have a problem since there are only 2 sensors, not 2 sets of sensors and >>> one close is slow. >>> >>> If light is somehow seems to be moving less than C by the non time >>> dilated clock, then if additional non-rotating sensors A2 and B2 are placed >>> right next to sensors A and B less than a mm apart then we would then >>> expect to find these sensors A2 and B2 to give the right answer to our >>> normal clock to get the expected velocity? >>> >>> But then censors B and B2 which are almost in the same exact place would >>> not see the photon at the same time, the second sensor B2 would see it >>> first, and later the slightly closer censor would! >>> >>> And it gets worse, from the rotating sensors and rotating clocks view >>> light is not taking the most direct path between the 2 censors, it is on an >>> angle, so the light is moving further in the rotated (slow clock) frame and >>> doing it in less time than the shorter distance would be expected to take >>> provided you assume that the previous example of B2 detecting something >>> before the ever so slightly closer B censor is not possible. >>> >>> About the only half way sensible way out of these impossibilities is to >>> assume that all the space between any 2 co-moving objects that could be >>> measuring light also gets time dilated?? And that is the most sensible but >>> still obviously wrong conclusion I can find. >>> >>> If you object that the time dilation means finding light the be faster >>> than C is fine, then read on, but note that even without time dilation the >>> light would still exceed C from taking a longer path.. >>> >>> >> <snip> >> > >
