John, this device is real. Read the article carefully and you will understand how the frequency is accurately explained by Lorentz contraction. Do you consider that a coincidence? I fail to understand why you are so reluctant to accept that this device works as described when using Lorentz length contraction to accurately calculate the output frequency.
The Doppler ideas that you suggest fail to give the correct answer. I realize it is difficult to accept SR when you have so much invested in your belief that it is not real, but you must try hard to get over that issue. Also, it does little good to avoid accepting the reality of this particular device by stating that you do not have one to test. I bet you don't have an LHC either. And yes, it is hand waving when you claim that the Doppler shift is the reason for the up conversion in frequency. It can readily be shown that the electrons change velocity a very tiny amount while the output frequency changes over a decade. The Doppler shift would therefore be minor whereas the device output frequency varies enormously. Explain how this is possible with Doppler. I find your statement humorous that the Doppler increase is enough to account for the evidence...you are kidding I assume. Stick to this system if you really want to understand how SR is demonstrated. To muddy the water by diversion to something entirely different does not help. The Free-electron x-ray laser is an extremely good example that proves special relativity has strong merit. Why are you reluctant to analyze such a fine demonstration of SR? This device can answer many of the questions that you have posed. It will likely be my favorite example supporting SR from this point forth and you would be wise to rely upon it to enhance your understanding of SR as well. One simple device that demonstrates both time dilation and length contraction at the same time is remarkable. Dave -----Original Message----- From: John Berry <[email protected]> To: vortex-l <[email protected]> Sent: Mon, Mar 10, 2014 6:34 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Time Dilation and Free-electron Laser The Doppler effect is not handwaving, it is a very real effect that would notably increase the frequency of the light emitted from the electrons hugely (enough to account for the evidence). Additionally absolute time dilation from the electron moving through the aether at near light speed could also account for the results potentially depending on how photons are viewed to form. The Doppler argument is the easiest, since it is not in any way unknown or controversial, it MUST be present unless specifically neutralized by design. So the question then becomes, has the design been to actually remove this effect, or to confuse it with the expected length contraction results so that it does not disagree with SR? Hey, do you have a FEL we can test out? Me neither. I can think of other theories and problems with SR's conclusion of this experiments, but it isn't really the solid evidence you think. Indeed if this were done in a circular track, SR would now claim that the motion is now absolute and argue that the electron is moving definitively and the Lab stationary just as the speed of light around a Sagnac loop can exceed C from the rotating frame (light sent in one direction arrives too soon, and the other direction too late). And SR also claims that with a circular track, time dilation applies to the one moving in a circle only, which means they would see the Lab clock tick faster than theirs... This would also mean that if we applied an undulator to electrons (or protons?) in a circular accelerator the effect would disappear. Hence if time dilation and the speed of light no longer being C is accepted by SR, then the orbiting electron should not see length contraction either as this is not an inertial frame the electron is in. Or at least, if you try to apply length contraction and time dilation and various other SR claims to circular motion SR breaks immediately. You are trusting some entirely biased interpretations of an experiment, it would be very much the same as trusting a sceptics take on a cold fusion cell. The analysis is not going to be fair, and if they control the experiment, the data provided from it, and provide the only 'accepted' theory.... No wonder it looks like it fits. But the Doppler effect is way more than enough to explain the result. John On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 5:43 AM, David Roberson <[email protected]> wrote: After thinking about the Free-electron x-ray laser device a bit longer, I realize that it appears to demonstrate time dilation as well as Lorentz contraction rather neatly. In my earlier post I pointed out the excellent reference in Wikipedia about the Lorentz contraction being directly demonstrated by the output frequency of the laser. The mathematical contribution of the contraction enters directly into the calculation of the x-ray output frequency in a manner that is difficult to argue against. It appears that the same is true for a demonstration of time dilation according to special relativity (SR). Here is one example of how time dilation is exhibited: The undulator is a structure that exists in our stationary frame of reference through which the relativistic electron beam propagates. It consists of a series of permanent magnets that alternate poles along its length such that the electrons are accelerated at right angles to their main high velocity path by a modest amount as they pass through the structure. We observe them moving up and down or right and left depending upon the design of the undulator. Since the device operates by using electrons that are traveling at very nearly the speed of light, we observe only a tiny change in frequency of that right angle motion as their speed creeps up toward the light speed limit. Here I am referring to what we see looking from the side of the undulator at the moving electrons. To put this measurement into perspective, very little difference is observed in the motion of the electrons even though the laser output frequency changes over an order of magnitude in frequency. We would conclude that the frequency of the up and down electron motion remains essentially unchanged as energy is imparted upon the electrons by the system. At the same time the actual measured output frequency of x-rays emitted changes over an order of magnitude according to real life systems. This can readily be explained by realizing that we are actually observing time dilation at work. This is evident because the observed change in velocity of the series of electrons approaches a limit of c while the time dilation increases without bounds as that limit is neared. I find this laser device to be one of the best demonstrations of SR that I have encountered. Here one device can be built which clearly shows how time dilation and length contraction occur with motion of relativistic electrons. Any reference to Doppler confusion is nothing but hand waving. An injection signal of very small amplitude is sometimes utilized to lock the high power output x-ray signal to its phase. This allows the operator to significantly reduce the noise that typically would be seen had the device been allowed to operate with the non uniform electron beam. Careful analysis of the operation and construction of this type of device should be adequate to explain SR to all but the most determined skeptics. Harry, your train thought experiment should be simulated by the operation of one of these devices. The track is replaced by the undulator and the electron beam can stand in for the train. Both Lorentz contraction and time dilation are demonstrated in a real world type of device. Refer to the article for an excellent description of this type of device: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-electron_laser Dave
