Hm... this sounds a lot like copying the wave into a private wavelet with only a subset of the participants...?
How could the document handle a different set of events for each client? The wave would lose sync instantly and fragment into sub-waves for each different group of participants, no? ~ Doug. On Nov 3, 1:31 pm, Vega <[email protected]> wrote: > Heh, I think Isaac Asimov would be delighted to read this > discussion :) > Joseph, I agree that matters should be kept as simple as possible, but > there's also a danger in over simplifying. > I think in current state, the protocol is over simplified and doesn't > give enough control to it's participants: humans and robots. In fact I > think that any participant should be able to provide a capabilities > xml to wave server where she specifies exactly what event the > participant is interested - be the participant robot or human. > In case of human participant - such a need arises when you are admin > and you want your users to be blocked from receiving events from users > outside of the company. In case of the robot provider - you want to > expose your robot only to your payed customers and you don't want to > pay for the inbound traffic caused by events sent to your robot by non > customer participants. > > There's such a thing - too much freedom. Too much freedom leads to > anarchy. I think Wave in a Box should address this vulnerability by > providing built in mechanism of inbound traffic control. Such control > will also benefit the wave server providers as it will minimize spam > traffic. > > On Nov 2, 11:59 pm, Joseph Gentle <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > We could add it to the federation protocol; but it makes the protocol > > more complicated. I don't want to add yet more complexity to the > > protocols without a good reason. > > > Sell me on it - what robots are difficult to write without this flag? > > I'm not convinced by the translation robot - it might make sense for a > > translation robot to listen to events from other robots, if those > > robots submit blips in foreign languages. > > > -J > > > On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 8:49 AM, Nathanael Abbotts <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > Is there no way that it could be possible for a server to identify someone > > > as a robot? > > > Surely if we had profile operations, then it could be done. Not sure > > > though > > > - this solution would only work if we have a rusty-esque robot proxy, in > > > which case the rusty agent could decide to withhold an event based on the > > > capabilities, if only for robots that connect to that particular server > > > (via > > > rusty), and not for robots connected to other servers. > > > -- > > > Nathanael Abbotts > > > > On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 21:44, Joseph Gentle <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >> Right; but we still have no way to tell who's a robot and who's not > > >> via federation. > > > >> I think we should keep things simple; and make it up to the robot > > >> which blips it responds to. > > > >> -J > > > >> On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 5:16 AM, Nathanael Abbotts <[email protected]> > > >> wrote: > > >> > If in the capabilities.xml of the robot (or equivalent), a robot could > > >> > specify if it wants to receive events triggered by robots for each > > >> > event, > > >> > then this problem could be fixed. > > >> > For instance, a translation robot wouldn't want > > >> > to receive blipsubmitted > > >> > events from other robots, but a table of contents > > >> > robot definitely would. > > >> > If even more detail is needed or wanted, a robot could specify only to > > >> > get > > >> > events from specific robots. Here is an extract from an example xml > > >> > file: > > > >> > <w:capabilities> > > >> > <w:capability name="ANNOTATED_TEXT_CHANGED" context="ROOT,SELF" > > >> > filter="myrobot/annotationname" > > >> > robots="[email protected],[email protected]" /> > > >> > <w:capability name="BLIP_SUBMITTED" context="ROOT,SELF" robots="" /> > > >> > <w:capability name="WAVELET_SELF_ADDED" context="ROOT" robots="*" /> > > >> > </w:capabilities> > > > >> > Here, we have 3 events. The first one is annotated_text_changed, which > > >> > is > > >> > used by the robot to track specific selections within a blip. The robot > > >> > only > > >> > cares if a human, or one of 2 specific robots, changes this. > > >> > Next, blip_submitted. For this event, the robot is not interested in > > >> > events > > >> > from other robots, so an empty string is provided. > > >> > Finally, wavelet_self_added. Because this robot happens to do an > > >> > important > > >> > action which, if not done, will cause errors in future, the robot wants > > >> > this > > >> > to happen regardless of who added it. > > >> > -- > > >> > Nathanael Abbotts > > >> > Email: [email protected] > > >> > Wave: [email protected] > > >> > Twitter: @natabbotts (http://twitter.com/natabbotts) > > > >> > On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 07:32, Vega <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >> >> If it is possible to handle bursts of traffic from arbitrary endpoints > > >> >> without falling over - it is great. But what about robot providers? > > >> >> Let's take for example a robot running on App Engine. It only takes a > > >> >> child to create a new wave, add there some text, then add 2 > > >> >> translating robots and let them translate each other until the wave > > >> >> explodes (or wave server somehow discovers abuses and... close the > > >> >> wave?) These robots will burn a lot of their quota. And it only takes > > >> >> a child to cause such abuse. I think translating robot will be > > >> >> interested to react only on human events, or on nonhuman events that > > >> >> it trusts. Failing to provide such mechanism will totally expose > > >> >> robots to abuse, imho. And wave server providers will also pay the > > >> >> price in form of handling spam traffic. > > > >> >> On Nov 2, 6:50 am, Wim <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> >> > Why not? If the robots aim is best served by responding to all > > >> >> > messages then why shouldn't it respond to all messages? Imagine a > > >> >> > translation bot that embeds replies in a blip translating that blip > > >> >> > into selected languages, why should other robots blips be ignored by > > >> >> > this bot? > > > >> >> > It should be up to the robot to determine what messages it is > > >> >> > interested in, first case for almost all robots would be ignoring > > >> >> > messages from itself. After that it would have to filter based on > > >> >> > what it is setup to do; whether that is checking the content to > > >> >> > determine if its control commands are there, or if the author > > >> >> > matches > > >> >> > the author that added it to the conversation, or .... This is all > > >> >> > part of the logic of the robot based off how it is to behave. > > > >> >> > Allowing robots to respond to other robots definitely does have the > > >> >> > problem of infinite recursion. Something as simple as two echoey > > >> >> > robots in the same wave from different servers could cause this > > >> >> > problem, or two spell checking robots battling over whether it is > > >> >> > spelt "color" or "colour". As Alex said this issue should be dealt > > >> >> > with at the server level, maybe servers should have some method to > > >> >> > provide both clients and robots with a 'warning' that they are close > > >> >> > to being cutoff and then remove them from the wave if they continue > > >> >> > spamming it. > > > >> >> > This problem should also be dealt with at the robot level as well, > > >> >> > something like a spell checking robot should be storing a list of > > >> >> > words it has changed in a private wavelet and not trying to change a > > >> >> > word a second time, e.g. if you are commenting on the "Color" class > > >> >> > of > > >> >> > some code and the spell checker changes it to "Colour" you should be > > >> >> > able to change it back and the spell checker should ignore the word. > > > >> >> > On Nov 2, 3:27 pm, "Gamer_Z." <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >> >> > > IMHO this should not be a necessary part of the protocol. Robots > > >> >> > > should not be programmed to respond to every message. Doing that > > >> >> > > would not have any benefit to the developer because users would > > >> >> > > very > > >> >> > > quickly get annoyed with them. > > > >> >> > > On Nov 1, 10:19 pm, Alex North <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >> >> > > > In fact, it was an architectural flaw in Google Wave that robots > > >> >> > > > could not > > >> >> > > > talk to each other. It was never desired behaviour. Our vision > > >> >> > > > was > > >> >> > > > that > > >> >> > > > robots could do "anything a human can do". Of course didn't > > >> >> > > > quite > > >> >> > > > get there, > > >> >> > > > but were working towards it. > > > >> >> > > > In the current federation protocol there is no means to identify > > >> >> > > > a > > >> >> > > > participant as being automated or not. Even if there were, that > > >> >> > > > would > > >> >> > > > require trusting arbitrary federated wave servers to correctly > > >> >> > > > identify > > >> >> > > > their participants. Apart from there being many valid reasons > > >> >> > > > that > > >> >> > > > the > > >> >> > > > distinction is unnecessary, this would be somewhat like trusting > > >> >> > > > mail > > >> >> > > > servers not to send spam. Protection against abuse needs to be > > >> >> > > > done > > >> >> > > > elsewhere, possibly imperfectly. > > > >> >> > > > There is some concern that two talking robots could enter an > > >> >> > > > infinite loop. > > >> >> > > > I'm not convinced that this is something we need to design the > > >> >> > > > protocol to > > >> >> > > > protect against. We should instead implement wave servers such > > >> >> > > > that > > >> >> > > > they can > > >> >> > > > handle bursts of traffic from arbitrary endpoints without > > >> >> > > > falling > > >> >> > > > over, > > >> >> > > > perhaps with some kind of throttle. If they detect that some > > >> >> > > > (possibly > > >> >> > > > federated) participant or server is abusive, it's the receiving > > >> >> > > > server's > > >> >> > > > call whether to cut them off. No loop is infinite because waves > > >> >> > > > have > > >> >> > > > size > > >> >> > > > limits: right now there is a size limit built right into the > > >> >> > > > protocol, but > > >> >> > > > even if there wasn't there would be an effective (if > > ... > > read more » -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Wave Protocol" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected]. 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